>>> RAUL HILBERG'S EXHAUSTIVE RESEARCH AND SCHOLARSHIP CHANGED THE WAY WE VIEW THE HOLOCAUST AND HOW SUCH HORRORS COME ABOUT.

THE PROFESSOR EMERITUS OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AND WORLD LEADER IN HOLOCAUST STUDIES, RAUL HILBERG IS MY GUEST, NEXT ON "PROFILE."

♪♪ >>> RAUL HILBERG WAS RAISED IN VIENNA, UNTIL HIS FAMILY FLED THE THIRD REICH FOR THE U.S.

IN 1939.

HE WAS 13.

AFTER SCHOOLING IN NEW YORK, A FEW YEARS IN THE U.S.

ARMY IN EUROPE, A MASTERS AND DOCTORAL DEGREE FROM COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY, HILBERG TOOK A JOB AT THE UNIVERSITY OF VERMONT WHERE HE TAUGHT FOR OVER 30 YEARS.

HILBERG'S EARLY OBSESSION TO UNDERSTAND THE BUREAUCRATIC DOCUMENTS AND ACTIONS THAT RESULTED IN THE HOLOCAUST LED TO HIS THREE VOLUME WORK, THE DESTRUCTION OF THE EUROPEAN JEWS, ONE OF THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE AND AUTHORITATIVE BOOKS WRITTEN ON THE HOLOCAUST.

HIS LABOR ON THIS AND OTHER PUBLICATIONS HAS GARNERED HIM INTERNATIONAL RECOGNITION INCLUDING GERMANY'S HIGHEST HONOR FOR SERVICES TO THEIR NATION.

IT'S WONDERFUL HAVING YOU HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> WHY DID YOUR FAMILY LEAVE VIENNA?

>> WE HAD TO.

MY FATHER WAS ARRESTED IN NOVEMBER 1938.

RELEASED BECAUSE OF HIS WAR RECORD IN THE FIRST WORLD WAR.

BUT NOT SEPTEMBER TO THE CONCENTRATION CAMP ON CONDITION THAT WE LEAVE BY A CERTAIN DATE.

AND THAT WAS APRIL 1, 1939.

>> IN YOUR MEMOIR THE POLITICS OF MEMORY YOU ELOQUENTLY SPEAK OF A RELATIVE YOU NEVER SAW AGAIN.

HOW MANY DO YOU THINK YOU LOST ABOUT?

>> EVERY PERSON WHO WAS AN WAS VERY STRANGE FEELING AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR WHEN I INQUIRED DID ANYBODY AT ALL CALL OR WRITE.

NO.

THEY VANISHED.

YOU KNOW, THAT IS HALF OF A FAMILY, FAR FLUNG FAMILY THAT SIMPLY DISAPPEARED.

AND IT IS HARD TO DESCRIBE THE FEELING THAT ONE HAS.

>> YEAH.

>> ABOUT SUCH THINGS.

>> I CAN ONLY IMAGINE.

YOUR FATHER MADE YOU LEARN HEBREW AND HE HAD YOU MEMORIZE THE GENESIS IN HEBREW.

HOW DID THAT AFFECT YOU AND YOUR RIGHTING STYLE?

>> I THINK THAT I OBTAINED FROM HEBREW A LANGUAGE I HAVE NOW TOTALLY FOREGOTTEN THE SENSE OF BREAKITY AND PARTICULARLY FROM GENESIS BECAUSE -- THE SENSE OF BREAKITY.

HEBREW SAYS THINGS IN VERY FEW WORDS AND I REMEMBER AN EDITOR TELLING ME YOU WRITE SHORT SEN TENS.

I SAID COME TO THINK OF IT, I DO.

>> AND IT IS FROM THAT EASTBOUND FLEW WEDNESDAY.

YOU ACTUALLY HAD AN -- FROM THAT INFLUENCE.

WHEN DID YOU DISCOVER HISTORY AND POLITICAL SCIENCE AS A PASSION?

>> EGEOGRAPHY WAS SOMETHING THAT I LOVED FROM THE AGE OF 10 BECAUSE I HAD AN ATLAS AND SPENT HOURS AND HOURS AND HOURS STUDYING LITERALLY AND HISTORY WAS TO ME IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM OF VERY THAT UNTIL HITLER WALKED IN AND THEN I SAID THIS IS HISTORY.

AND I BEGAN TO BE VERY INTERESTED IN EVENTS AND I WHICH MEANT THAT I RECORDED EVENTS DAY BY DAY.

AND THAT WAS AN EXERCISE THAT WAS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT TO ME.

>> WELL, I GUESS BEING SO OBSESSED, OF COURSE, WITH DOCUMENTS.

>> YES.

>> THAT COMES INTO THAT WHOLE PIECE.

WELL, AFTER HIGH SCHOOL AND SOME COLLEGE IN BROOKLYN, SO YOU WERE IN NEW YORK FOR AWHILE, YOU JOINED THE U.S.

ARMY AND YOU ARE STATIONED IN EUROPE AND IN GERMANY WHERE YOU WITNESS THE COLLAPSE OF THE THIRD REICH.

HOW EERY WAS THAT FOR YOU.

>> IT WASN'T SO MUCH EERIE AS IT DISCLOSED THE INSIDE OF A COUNTRY AND BECAUSE I COULD SPEAK THE LANGUAGE WHAT THEY WERE DOING AND, OF COURSE, THEY WERE STUNNED BY THE DEFEAT AND TRIED TO SOMEHOW LIVE AND SO ON.

I WAS THERE DURING THE COLLAPSE PERIOD, THE VERY END OF THE WAR, AND IT THERE STRANGE THINGS HAPPENING LIKE SUICIDE ATTACKS ON US AND SO ON.

BUT I -- I IMMEDIATELY UNDERSTOOD THAT I A TEENAGER COULD CONTROL A LOT OF PEOPLE.

THAT THIS WAS A PRESET TYPE OF THING.

THE NAZIS LEFT NOW AND WE WERE IN CHARGE.

HOW ABOUT THAT.

AND THAT MADE AN IMPRESSION ON ME.

>> I BET WITH THE TABLES TURNED SO QUICKLY IN A WAY.

>> WELL, YES.

>> WHAT INSPIRED YOUR INVESTIGATION OF DOCUMENTS AS WE JUST MENTIONED AS THIS, YOU KNOW, THIS MAJOR SOURCE OF HISTORIC INFORMATION WHICH BECAME YOUR MASTERS ESSAY AND THEN YOUR P.H.D.

DISSER IS EXPECTATION AT COLUMBIA.

WHAT INSPIRED THAT FOR DOCUMENTS IN PARTICULAR?

>> I WANTED TO WRITE SOMETHING IN PUBLIC LAW BECAUSE THIS WAS MY DEGREE, PUBLIC LAW AND GOVERNMENT.

I WAS MAJORING IN INTERNATIONAL LAW.

THAT BROUGHT ME TO THE KNEW RENBERG TRIALS AND THEN I WANTED TO SEE THE EVIDENCE.

THE EVIDENCE WAS IN EUROPE BUT I HAD A MENTOR WHO COULD WRITE.

I HAD A GRADUATE STUDENT AND HE SHIPPED OFF A TON OF THEM FROM THE NEURENBURG TRIALS AND I BEGAN READING THEM.

AND YOU COULDN'T PICK UP A BOOK.

IT WAS JUST BRAND NEW.

AND SO THE ONLY CURE WAS TO READ MORE DOCUMENTS.

AND FINALLY, MY MENTOR SENT ME TO WASHINGTON AND I WENT INTO A TORPEDO TUBE FACTORY TURNED INTO AN ARCHIVES READING CAPTURED RECORDS AND THIS WAS A SITE TEN THOUSAND LINEAR FEET OF SHELF WITH FOLDERS STACKED UP THERE ALL GERMAN DOCUMENTS.

>> AND EIGHT OF US WERE LET LOOSE AND YOU CAN IMAGINE WHAT KIND OF IMPRESSION THAT MADE ON ME.

>> I'M WONDERING AS A REFUGEE AND BEING FOREIGN BORN DID THAT LIMIT YOUR ACCESS AT ALL TO FOREIGN DOCUMENTS OR CLEARLY NOT AT THIS POINT IN YOUR CAREER?

>> ACTUALLY UNLESS WE HAD THE MASTERY OF THE LANGUAGES, PRIMARILY GERMAN AND RUSSIA, UNLESS YOU HAD THAT MASTERY WHAT GOOD WERE YOU.

IT WAS JUST EXACTLY THE SAME WHEN I WAS A SOLDIER.

I WAS JUST AN INFANTRYMAN AND THE FIRST QUESTION WAS WHO HERE CAN SPEAK GERMAN.

>> AND YOU BECAME PART OF THE INTELLIGENCE UNIT.

>> I MEAN SIX PEOPLE.

THAT WAS THE INTELLIGENCE UNIT UP ON THE FRONTLINE, YOU KNOW.

BUT THIS WAS THE REASON I WAS IN RUSSIA.

I COULD NOT GET A JOB THERE.

, I COULD NOT MAKE A CAREER IN WASHINGTON.

I LOVED GOVERNMENT AND I LOVED WASHINGTON BUT I AS A FOREIGN BORN PERSON IN THOSE DAYS EVERYTHING WAS CLOSED EXCEPT THE C.I.A.

>> AND YOU KNOW, ALL OF YOUR LIFE YOU HAVE BEEN UNDERRABLE STANDABLEY SENSITIVE TO DISCRIMINATION THAT YOU GOT FROM WASHINGTON.

WHAT WAS YOUR EXPERIENCE IN VERMONT BECAUSE YOU WERE ABLE THROUGH YOUR MENTOR AND THROUGH SCHOOLING FIND A POSITION.

>> I HAD TWO VERY SHORT TEACHING JOBS WHICH WERE TEMPORARY AND THE ONE I GOT HERE WAS TEMPORARY TO BEGIN WITH.

BUT I WAS SURPRISED THAT THE -- THAT I GOT THIS EVEN THOUGH I HAD MY DEGREE, THAT I GOT THIS TEMPORARY JOB.

I WAS SURPRISED.

AND I -- I HAD TO BE TOLD BY A PROFESSOR AT COLUMBIA LOOK, VERMONT CAN HOT DISCRIMINATE, IT IS A STATE UNIVERSITY.

WHEN I JOINED -- CANNOT DISCRIMINATE.

WHEN I SCREENED MY DEPARTMENT IT SEEMED WE WERE NOT DISCRIMINATING EXCEPT FOR ONE THING, NO CATHOLICS DID APPLY.

>> THERE WAS AND THE JEWISH PROBLEM, THERE WAS A CATHOLIC PROBLEM.

>> RIGHT.

>> HOW INTERESTING.

>> YOU CAN IMAGINE HOW THAT OPENED MY EYES TO THINGS.

>> GOING BACK TO WRITING THIS BECOME, THE DESTRUCTION OF THE EUROPEAN JEWS WHICH WAS TIRELESSLY FOR 13 YEARS BEFORE YOU CAME TO VERMONT, AFTER YOU CAME AND STARTED TEACHING AND YOU ARE STILL WORKING ON THIS BOOK.

THE FIRST PUBLICATION COMES OUT IN 1961.

WHAT DID YOU DISCOVER ABOUT THE NATURE OF SYSTEMS AND WHOLE SOCIAL STRUCTURE THAT CAN LEAD TO THE UNTHINKABLE?

TO GENOCIDE?

>> I NEVER COULD ANSWER THE QUESTION OF WHY IT HAPPENED.

BUT FROM THE BEGINNING I PAID ATTENTION TO HOW IT WAS DONE.

AND I REALIZED THIS WAS NOT THE ACT OF A FEW PEOPLE AND I MADE THE STATEMENT PROBABLY THE FIRST TIME ANYBODY MADE THE STATEMENT THAT NO GERMAN AGENCY WAS UNINVOLVED.

EVERY SINGLE ONE EVEN THE ONE YOU ARE NOT EVEN THINKING OF HAD A ROLE TO PLAY.

AND THAT, OF COURSE, REQUIRED A LOT OF TIME, YOU KNOW, TO PER USE ALL THESE DIFFERENT AGENCIES SO TO THE EXTENT THAT DOCUMENTATION WAS AVAILABLE, OF COURSE.

AND THIS WAS INISHIALLY AND STILL IS A MAJOR CONCERN OF MINE.

>> WAS IT DONE KNOWINGLY.

HOW WERE DECISIONS MADE AND ACTIONS TAKEN FROM THE 18-YEAR-OLD WHO WAS GIVEN AN ASSIGNMENT TO, YOU KNOW, TO AN EDUCATED CULTURED PERSON?

>> WELL, I WILL THINK THAT GROWTH IN THESE YEARS IS WHAT CECE SENTENCING AS EDUCATORS WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED WITH, INTELLECTUAL GROWTH.

THE STUDENT HAS TO SEE A PATTERN.

THE STUDENT HAS TO TEACH HIMSELF.

YOU CAN HELP HIM OR HER BUT BASICALLY I DON'T BELIEVE IN TEACHING AT ALL.

I BELIEVE IN LEARNING.

>> AFTER 30 YEARS OF IT.

>> AFTER -- I BELIEVE IN LEARNING.

AND WE ARE THERE AS TEACHERS TO HELP PEOPLE LEARN.

AND TO ME, THE STRUCTURAL ASPECTS WERE CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.

THIS IS WHY I BECAME APOLITICAL SCIENTIST RATHER THAN A HISTORIAN LOOKING THROUGH SEQUENCES OF EVENTS.

I WANTED TO KNOW FIRST WHO IT THIS AND IN WHAT SEQUENCE IT WAS DONE.

>> AND HOW IN THESE INSTITUTIONS MORE AND MORE STARTED -- >> I HAD TO MAKE AN OUTLET FOR MY DISSERTATIONS, SINGLE SPACED, 40-PAGES AND THE OUTLINE I KEPT ALL MISLIVE.

IT WAS BASICALLY THE STRUCTURE AND HOW THE STEPS WERE TAKEN ONE BY ONE.

>> NOW, AT FIRST IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO PUBLISH THIS BOOK.

YOU HAD YOUR MEAGER SAVINGS THAT YOU PUT TOWARDS IT.

YOU HAD A BENEFACTOR AND STILL COULD NOT FIND A PUBLISHER FOR SOMETHING THAT HAS BECOME JUST ABSOLUTELY SEMINOLE AND CRITICAL IN THIS WORK AND YOU ARE WORLD REKNOWNED FROM IT.

WHY IT WAS SO DIFFICULT TO PUBLISH THIS?

>> WITH IT IS A COMMERCIAL PUBLISHER OR A UNIVERSITY PRESSES.

I BEGAN WITH THE UNIVERSITY PRESSES.

THEY HAVE TO SELL BOOKS.

AND THEY DETERMINED DIDN'T MATTER WHETHER IT WAS COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY PRESS OR PRINCETON UNIVERSITY PRESS OR OKLAHOMA UNIVERSITY PRESS, THIS YALE UNIVERSITY PERSON IN THIS CASE WASN'T EVEN MY DOING, BUT IT WAS CLEAR THAT THEY WERE CONVINCED SUCH BOOKS COULD NOT BE SOLD.

>> BECAUSE THE NEWS WAS SO DEVASTATING?

>> NO.

BECAUSE THE PUBLIC WAS NOT INTERESTED.

>> WELL, THEY CERTAINLY BECAME INTERESTED.

AND FINALLY THE TIDE DID TURN.

>> YES.

>> AND PARTICULARLY, IN EUROPE AND YOU HAD YOUR THIRD PRINTING NOW THAT INCLUDED -- >> THIRD EDITION.

>> THE THIRD EDITION THAT INCLUDED DOCUMENTS YOU WERE ABLE TO GET AFTER THE DISSOLUTION OF THE SOVIET UNION.

ONE OF THE DISCOVERIES THAT MANY HAD A LOT OF TROUBLE WITH IN THIS WAS THE IDEA THAT JEWS AND JEWISH COUNSELORS WERE TRAGICALLY COMPLICIT IN THE DESTRUCTION OF THEIR PEOPLE.

IT IS A COMPLICATED PIECE OF YOUR STORY CERTAINLY AND ONE THAT EVEN YOUR DISSERTATIONS ADVISOR THOUGHT MAYBE YOU SHOULD LEAVE OUT BECAUSE THINGS WOULD BE DIFFICULT.

HOW DID YOU STRUGGLE WITH THAT ASPECT OF THE HISTORY THAT WAS SO CLEAR OVER THE YEARS?

>> I WAS NOT STRUGGLING.

I WAS SIMPLY INSISTENT ON WRITING AS COMPLETE AN ACCOUNT AS I COULD AND REALIZING THAT THE GERMANS DIDN'T HAVE ALL THE PERSONNEL REQUIRED FOR SUCH AN UNDERTAKING AND THEREFORE USED JEWISH STRUCTURES, JEWISH ORGANIZATIONS TO DO THEIR WORK.

EVEN COMPILING LISTS FOR DEPORTATION AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.

WELL, OBVIOUSLY GRADUALLY BECAME INTERESTED IN THE SCOPE OF THIS.

VERY GRADUALLY BECAUSE THE DOCUMENTS FROM JEWISH SOURCES ARE SPARSE AND THEY CAME ALONG RATHER LATE.

>> AND PEOPLE WERE UPSET TO HEAR THAT THIS IS EVEN A POSSIBILITY?

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

AND I WAS ACCUSED OF ALL SORTS OF THINGS, OF IGNORING THE RESISTANCE AND ENLARGING THE JEWISH ROLE UNTIL, OF COURSE, THE SOVIET UNION COLLAPSED AND WE HAD A LOT OF RECORDS.

AND THEN THERE WAS INCREASING SILENCE AND IN THE OPPOSING CAMP, YOU KNOW.

THIS IS HISTORY.

THIS WE HAVE TO ROE LE COG BECAUSE IT HAPPENED.

>> AND WE DON'T WANT IT -- RECOGNIZE BECAUSE IT HAPPENED.

>> AND WE DON'T WANT IT TO HAPPEN AGAIN.

>> HOW DID MUSIC INFLUENCE YOUR WORK?

>> I HAD VERY LITTLE MUSICAL EDUCATION.

BUT I WAS LISTENING TO RADIO STATIONS THAT FEATURE CLASSICAL MUSIC AND IT DAWNED ON ME QUITE LATE ACTUALLY IN THE GAME, THAT I HAD LITERALLY COPIED THE STRUCTURE OVER SYMPHONIES PARTICULARLY BEETHOVEN AND I WROTE THIS AND MY MEMOIR WHICH IS REALLY A WORK REPORT I WASN'T SURE OF MYSELF.

SO I RUSHED UP TO THE LIBRARY AND I FOUND A BOOK BY A CERTAIN LOCKWOOD WHO WAS A MUSICOLOGIST AND I SAID WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING -- I STARTED LOOKING AT HOW HE WORKED WITH PEOPLE WITH NOTEBOOKS AND I'M SORT OF BEETHOVEN WALKS AROUND WITH NOTEBOOKS AND I WALK AROUND WITH MY SOURCES YOU KNOW AND WE ARE BOTH SORT OF ARCHITECTURAL IN OUR APPROACH.

THAT IS, HE HAD TO BUILD HIS MUSIC.

AND YOU FAKE FOUR NOTES AND -- YOU TAKE FOUR NOTES IN SYMPHONY NUMBER FIVE AND AN INFINITE NUMBER OF VARIATIONS BUILD IN THEM.

I SAID MY GOD, THAT IS WHAT I HAVE DONE.

AND, OF COURSE, HE WAS THE MODEL.

AND I FIGURED WELL, YOU KNOW, WHEN I PUBLISH THIS BOOK -- I WONDER HOW LONG IT WOULD TAKE BEFORE I HEAR FROM HIM.

I FIGURED WELL, GIVE IT SIX ONS.

THE WORD MUST GET AROUND.

TWO WEEKS.

>> WOW.

>> AND THE REACTION WAS?

>> WAS E. HE WAS ON A PLANE WHEN HE READ IT AND JERUSALEM PED OUT OF THE -- AND HE ALMOST JUMPED OUT OF THE PLANE.

THIS IS AN EMINENT MAN BUT TO BE ANALYZED BY SOUTHBOUND SOMEBODY TOTALLY OUT OF THE MUSICAL FIELD.

>> BUT I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT SOMETHING SO HUGE AND COMPREHENSIVE IT IS WONDERFUL THAT MUSIC AND MUSICAL STRUCTURE HELPED CREATE A STRUCTURE HERE.

YOU TESTIFIED AT NUMEROUS WAR CRIMES IN THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA SCOTLAND, AUSTRALIA.

WHAT DID YOU TAKE AWAY FROM THAT EXPERIENCE AND WERE THE PERPETRATORS HELD ACCOUNTABLE?

>> WELL, THERE WERE SEVERAL THINGS THAT MADE ME DO THIS.

FOR THE FIRST WAS THAT THE AMERICAN.

>> JUSTICE OFFICE OF SPECIAL INVESTIGATION COULD GET RECORDS THAT WERE AT AT TIME OF THE COLLAPSE OF THE SOVIET UNION UNATTAINABLE.

SO I WANTED THOSE RECORDS.

THE DEATHS IN THIS COUNTRY WERE ACCUSED OF -- THE DEFENDANTS IN THIS COUNTRY WERE ACCUSED OF HAVING -- THIS WAS DONE IN A CRIMINAL FASHION BUT THEY ARE NOT CRIMINAL CASES.

THEY WERE CASES TO DENATURALIZE A PERSON BECAUSE THE NATURALIZATION WAS FRAUD DUE LENT OR TO DEPORT THEM.

AND THIS IS A PARTICULARLY AMERICAN THING THIS DENATURALIZATION.

WHEN I TESTIFIED IN CANADA ABOUT THIS THE JUDGE SAYS WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY.

I SAID DENATURALIZATION.

I MEAN THIS WAS UNHEARD OF IN CANADA.

SO CLOSE.

BUT I WAS FASCINATED BY THE LAW.

I WAS ALWAYS FRUSTRATED THAT I DIDN'T GET A LAW DEGREE.

COULDN'T AFFORD IT.

AND I LEARNED QUITE A BIT ABOUT EVIDENCE, FOR INSTANCE.

AND IT WAS VERY INTERESTING TO ME TO FIGURE OUT HOW A LAWYER LOOKS AT A DOCUMENT AND HOW I DID.

THERE IS SOME DIFFERENCES THERE.

AND SO I LEARNED SOMETHING ABOUT ANOTHER DIMENSION OF THIS.

>> RIGHT GO.

>> BUT MOSTLY BECAUSE THE DEFENDANTS WERE POLICE AMERICAN AND THEY WERE COLLABORATORS, THEY WERE BALTIC POLICEMEN OR UKRAINIAN, I LEARNED SOMETHING THAT WASN'T AVAILABLE TO ME BEFORE.

I LEARNED ABOUT THE ENORMOUS ROLE OF THESE PARTICULAR COLLABORATORS.

>> SO THIS WAS INFORMATION YOU CAN ACTUALLY USE IN YOUR WORK.

>> OF COURSE.

>> SURE.

YOU SERVED ON THE UNITED STATES PRESIDENT'S COUNCIL ON THE HOLOCAUST AND ALSO ON THE MEMORIAL COUNCIL AND AMONG OTHER THINGS YOU HELPED DESIGN THE HOLOCAUST MUSEUM.

ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH HOW THAT CAME OUT?

>> I KNEW THE ARCHITECT INGA FEEDEN WAS A PARTNER BUT HAD NO IDEA WHO HE WAS.

YOU KNOW.

AND AN EMINENT MAN.

AND I WOULD SAY THAT HE PUT AN -- I SAID GET RID OF THIS KIP I SAID OF THIS EMINENT ARCHITECT.

GET RID OF IT.

AND THEN HE HAD A SORT OF SIX HEXAGON AND I SAID WHAT DO YOU NEED THIS FOR.

I KNEW THIS WAS SYMBOLIC OF THE SO-CALLED SIX MILLION YOU KNOW AND HE SAID I COULDN'T GET RID OF IT.

THIS WAS APOLITICAL MATTER.

>> RIGHT.

>> SO SOME THINGS SAY AND SOME THINGS GO.

>> EVERY BUILDING IN WASHINGTON IS APOLITICAL ACT.

>> CERTAINLY.

>> BUT MY INPUT THERE HAD MANY MORE RESULTS THAN ANYTHING I WOULD ACCOMPLISH AT THE UNIVERSITY OF VERMONT.

I SAID WE NEED -- YOU DEDICATED A MEMORY BUT WE DON'T EVEN KNOW YET WHAT WE HAVE TO REMEMBER.

WE HAVE TO GET THE DOCUMENTS AGAIN.

AND THEY SAID WELL WHAT IS THE, DOCUMENT THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE AND SUBSEQUENT CHAIRMAN OF THE COUNCIL ASKS ME.

I SAID DON'T USE FANCY WORDS WITH ME.

I SAID GIVE ME 25-CENT WORDS.

OF COURSE, HE COULD SPEAK FIVE LANGUAGES AND ALL OF THAT.

SO I SAID OKAY.

A DOCUMENT IS CRITICAL FOR US.

SO SAID WE WILL LOOK FOR THEM AND I HAVE A BIG PROJECT NOW OF MY CAREER FILMING IN ALL SORTS OF COUNTRIES AND DOCUMENTS SCATTERED ALL OVER.

HE CAME WITH US.

HE WAS THE ONLY MAN GETTING INTO THE ARCHIVES AND SAYS I WANT TO SEE ONE OF THESE.

I WAS IMPRESSED.

>> WHAT IS AMAZING IS THERE ARE DENIERS OF HERE YOU ARE USING FIRST-HAND DOCUMENTS, YEP.

>> AND STILL YOUR WORK IS QUESTIONED AND THERE IS BIG BIG -- THERE IS BICKERING OVER IT.

>> THEY DON'T BOTHER ME.

>> OVER A LIFETIME OF STUDY YOU -- YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE HUMAN BEINGS CAPABLE OF?

YOU HAVE THESE AGAIN AS I SAID EDUCATED CULTURED PEOPLE WHO BECOME MASS MURDERERS.

YOU ARE IN BERLIN GIVING A TALK AND A YOUNG STUDENT SAYS WHY DID WE DO IT?

WHAT DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU ANSWER THAT YOUNG MAN?

>> I COULDN'T.

I DID SOMETHING ILLEGITIMATE.

I SAID WHY DON'T YOU ASK YOUR PARENTS AND, OF COURSE, HE COULDN'T.

THERE IS NO WAY ANY -- THE DIVISION IN GERMANY AFTER THE WAR WAS BETWEEN GENERATIONS.

WAS FAR GREATER THAN THE DIVISION BETWEEN EAST AND WEST.

BECAUSE SONS AND DAUGHTERS COULD NOT TALK TO THEIR FATHER, COULD NOT ASK ACRITICAL QUESTION, WHAT DID YOU DO OR SEE DURING THE WAR.

>> AND YET GERMANY HAS GIVEN YOU ITS HIGHEST HONOR, IT HAS RECOGNIZED YOUR BOOKS AS, YOU KNOW, THE BEST.

>> FAIRLY RECENT.

>> THIS IS FAIRLY RECENT.

>> SO SOMETHING CERTAINLY AND THAT IS THE NEW GENERATION I GUESS.

>> BACK IN THE '60S A GERMAN PUBLISHER WAS ALREADY IN THE WORK OF TRANSLATING AND STOPPED IN THE MIDDLE.

>> AND HAD TO WAIT A BIT OF TIME.

PROBABLY A COUPLE DECADES AS YOU DID TO GO BACK.

YOU -- SO IN YOUR RETIREMENT YOU PUBLISHED THREE BOOKS AND THE THIRD EDITION OF THE DESTRUCTION OF THE EUROPEAN JEWS.

THIS IS HARDLY RETIRING.

IT SEEMS.

WHAT DID YOU WANT TO PUT OUT IN PARTICULAR PERPETRATORS, VICTIMS AND BYSTANDERS AND ALSO IN SOURCES OF HOLOCAUST RESEARCH THAT HAD NOT BEEN PUT INTO YOUR SEMINOLE WORK?

>> PERPETRATORS, VICTIMS BYSTANDERS IS AN IDEA THAT CAME TO ME AFTER TRAVELING ALONE TO EUROPE SO MANY TIMES AND GOING TO MUSEUMS WHICH IS WHAT YOU DO WHEN YOU HAVE NO ONE WITH YOU AND SO I SAID WELL, I GOT THE IDEA OF THE TRIP LOOKING AT PAINTINGS.

-- I SAID WELL, THIS IS A CRYSTAL LOGICAL MATTER.

>> ALL OF THEM CONTRIBUTE IN A WAY.

>> YES, INDEED.

BUT IF THE FIRST BOOK UNDERPINNING IN THE MUSICAL STRUCTURE PERPETRATORS, VICTIMS BYSTANDERS IS PICTORIAL.

I DREW PICTURES OF PEOPLE OR GROUPS OF PEOPLE.

WHO WERE THESE PERPETRATORS.

>> REAL PEOPLE.

>> YES.

WHO WERE.

I MEAN GIVING EXAMPLES NATURALLY.

WHO WERE THE VICTIMS.

HOW DO YOU CLASSIFY THEM?

WHAT IS THEIR COMPOSITION?

AND BYSTANDERS WHICH IS A BIG TOPIC BECAUSE THAT IS THE LARGEST GROUP.

SO THAT WAS SOMETHING.

TOOK ONLY ABOUT SIX OR SEVEN YEARS TO WRITE THIS BOOK.

>> THAT WAS THE EASY ONE.

I'M SO SORRY, WE ARE ALL OUT OF TIME.

PROFESSOR, THANK YOUR SO YOU TO MUCH FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTION.

NICE TO HAVE YOU WITH US.

>> PLEASURE.

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