- Meet the Republican and Democratic nominees for North Carolina Auditor on this special election 2024 edition of State Lines.

[upbeat music] Joining us is Republican Nominee for State Auditor, Dave Boliek.

Hello Mr. Boliek, welcome to State Lines.

- Great, glad to be here.

- First of all, every question for every Council of State candidate is, who are you and what's your background, what makes you run for State Auditor?

- Well, I am Dave Boliek, and I've been married for 30 years to the same wonderful woman.

We've got four great kids.

I'm an attorney by trade, I also have a Masters degree in business administration, so I've owned businesses, sign the front of a paycheck, as well as worked for a living and signed a back of a paycheck.

Over the last several years, I've chaired the board of trustees at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

And my work there, particularly with respect to the budget, and the way the university at Chapel Hill was budgeted, really sparked my run for State Auditor.

- What was it about the budget process of the UNC system, by the way, as a disclaimer, we're part of the UNC system.

Did you see something you didn't like or just saw a process you'd like to know more about?

- Well, we did.

In fact, when you put on the board, the first thing, just like any other nonprofit board, you go to kind of an onboarding session, and I was informed, along with new board members who were coming on, that the UNC Chapel Hill was run by 16 separate budgets.

Now, not 16 parts of a budget, but 16 separate budgets.

And I found that to be confusing, particularly when you're dealing with more than $4.4 billion a year in annual spend.

So, what we endeavored to do was to consolidate that to what's called an "All Funds" budget.

And in doing so, we discovered at UNC Chapel Hill, a $100 million structural annual deficit, which had that continued, it would be north of $400 million today.

So, we made some hard decisions, hard changes, that budgeting model, incidentally, has been adopted by all of the system schools, including UNC PBS North Carolina TV, in terms of a way of handling and structuring the budget.

- When it comes to budgets of those numbers, $4 billion for a university, now you're looking at a $30 billion state budget that runs every year and probably $100 billion in assets in the state that the auditor could look into when he or she is elected.

So, how do you scale it up?

Do you see very big differences in the process?

- Yeah, I think there are, certainly there are differences in the process.

One of the things we did do at Chapel Hill, which I want to take that experience into the State Auditors office, is at the time I joined the board, we didn't have an audit committee for example.

So, I established an audit committee at UNC Chapel Hill.

We were then able to take a look at performance and areas of performance.

So while I believe there had been some strong things that the state auditors office has done over recent years, particularly in the area of municipal audits, and auditing municipalities.

I can point to an audit that former auditor, Beth Wood, did of the City of Rocky Mount, where there was improprieties found, in terms of members of the council using city dollars for personal benefit.

Those types of audits certainly need to continue in the auditors office.

But I intend to sort of ramp up what I would call performance audits.

And that's taking a look at economy and efficiency of state government agencies and institutions.

And program results, what are the results, what are tax payers getting for programs, and agencies for that matter that are funded in North Carolina.

What's our return on investment?

So, we're gonna take a hard look, if I'm elected, at performance, as well as the bread and butter of what I call financial and compliance audits.

- It's an interesting answer, because my next question was how proactive should a state auditor be?

Should they look into programs that appear to be working well, should they wait for problems to bubble up, and then look at what's going on and attempt to document it, and then see about getting it repaired?

- Yeah, so my approach would be to be proactive, and so I appreciate the question.

For example, on the campaign trail, I have pledge to audit the Department of Motor Vehicles on day one.

And the reason is, is because I believe our state needs to be focused, with respect to the tax payers and the citizens on customer service.

And I've traveled from Murphy to Manio so-tospeak, the old saying, all across this state, and I hear story after story about the Department of Motor Vehicles.

Shouldn't be that hard to get a drivers license, shouldn't be that hard to walk in or get an appointment to get a drivers license in the State of North Carolina.

Now, I don't know the result of what a performance audit would be, and I don't pretend to tell anyone what that result would be, but I think the citizens of North Carolina are due for example, a performance audit on the DMV.

Now, what that does, Kelly, is that sets the tone for other state agencies.

That'll let other state agencies and institutions across North Carolina, know the approach that I'm gonna take as the state auditor to look toward making our state government more customer service oriented.

- If you thumb through a state audit, at least in recent years, it's mainly dollars and cents, money is spent well, money is not spent well, needs to be corrected.

What's the difference in that and a performance audit, performance audits sounds like you're not looking necessarily at dollars and cents, you're looking at I guess operations and how things flow, right?

- Right.

To be clear, we need to continue with the state auditor to look at the financial nuts and bolts of state government.

But performance audits take a look at processes and procedures, timelines, what is the resulting?

For example, answer the question, when somebody needs a drivers license, we'll go back to the DMV, somebody needs a drivers license renewed, what does that look like?

What is the timeframe from needing it, contacting the DMV, how they contact DMV, what is the response rate, what is the timeframe on somebody actually needing a license, and then getting that license?

Those are the types of questions that I think, for example, in a DMV audit, that we would want to answer.

- How do you separate your opinion of how it should work as Dave Boliek, versus how it should work as state auditor is part of a government apparatus?

- Well, I think it's really important also to understand that I believe as state auditor, you have to leave party politics at the door.

The state auditor needs to be an impartial looker of facts, to say it kinda in North Carolina plain speak.

We need to be able to take a look at all state government, regardless of party affiliation, and we need to be able to really take the approach of how can state government work better for every citizen in North Carolina, and that's regardless of party affiliation.

- Now, these races are all partisan, democrat, republican, how, you say it should be a nonpartisan once you're elected.

How long does it take to separate the idea of being on the campaign trail?

You're clearly, on your literature, you're a conservative, you're a republican, should republicans expect anything out of you because you uses those terms when seeing the office?

- Well, I think from the Republican Party standpoint, I think what citizens can expect from me is a conservative approach.

Taking a look at things with a really sharp eye.

I've proven that in my public life that I'm not afraid to ask tough questions, I'm not afraid to hold people accountable, and I'm not afraid to do what's right on behalf of the tax payer.

I've said on the campaign trail and I believe this, that these counciled state positions are really important and what needed are folks in those offices with the courage to stand up for what's right for the people of North Carolina in the face of opposition because anytime you take a hard look at the way things are done, there's gonna be natural opposition.

That doesn't mean that it needs to be adversarial, but there will be opposition to performance audits in state government.

You gotta have the courage to move forward.

- From what you know about know about the auditors office right now, is that team equipped to do more performance audits or do you see a, are you adding performance audits to an existing plate, are you dialing back on financial audits to focus on performance audits?

- So, there is a team in place that currently is charged with doing performance audits.

I quite frankly think we need to do more of that.

I also think that we need to take a really hard look at the technology needs in the auditors office.

My impression is from the information that I have on the current auditors office, is we have some hardworking professionals there, but we need an uptick in technology in order not to displace auditors and team members in the auditors office, but to make them more effective.

- How do you make that case to budget writers?

I've heard this out of the Secretary of States Office.

Now, she's a democrat, republicans run the state, you'd be a republican auditor.

How do you make the case to invest back in state agencies, because I would presume some conservatives think that it's not a good look and that's an expansion of government.

- Well, I think it goes back to ROI, return on investment, from programs across state government.

What the auditor can do, if that office is run correctly, can take a hard look at programs that the General Assembly funds, and ask the first most basic question, what is the return on investment for tax payers?

We can find programs that are giving a fantastic return on investment to state tax payers and citizens, we need to highlight that.

But when we're not getting the return on investment, the tax payers and the General Assembly expect that we need to call it out, and I think it's really important for an auditor to have the courage to give recommendations.

For example, if a program is not returning investment to tax payers, the recommendation needs to be to the governor and to the General Assembly, to defund the program and reapportion those dollars.

I think if technology is needed, in terms of a budget allocation and a request, we can pay for that by making government more efficient and more productive for tax payers.

- I noticed something in your campaign literature that I was reading online, you mentioned the culture of the state auditors office, because if you take over, you're inheriting a team, a stable team, and some of them, you probably can turn over, and a lot of folks are protected by the Employee Protection Act of the state.

So, what kind of leader are ya, and how do you get the Boliek culture in that office with the limitations placed on you by the state?

- Well, I think what I mean by culture and I appreciate the question, is being willing to be courageous in the face of state agencies, regardless of party affiliation, first.

Need to be, in our professional world, need to be very focused on the tax payer and how can we make government, and I sound like a broken record, but I really think this is where the state auditor can really really do great things for the State of North Carolina and for our citizens.

We need to ask the question, what return on investment are we getting for dollars in state agencies, because once the General Assembly appropriates money, that money's out the door, the horse is out of the barn so-to-speak.

So, it's incmubant upon the state auditor to take a hard look, ask the tough questions, and then return real recommendations.

Not just oh here is the result, but take a focus of what are recommending, can we give some solid common sense recommendations to the General Assembly, that they could at least consider in terms of change if that's necessary.

- Last 15 seconds.

In your opinion, state government working well, not working well?

- I think there's a lot of things about state government that work well, I think we have some fantastic state employees and team members across the state whose primary interest is doing what's best on behalf of the tax payers.

But I think the auditor's job is to find where we can make improvements.

- All right, David Boliek, GOP Nominee for State Auditor.

Thank you, sir.

- Thank you, Kelly, thanks for having me.

- While absentee ballots will start being mailed out in early September, in-person early voting begins October 17th, 2024.

It ends on November 2nd, 2024.

Traditional Election Day is November 5th.

That's also the deadline for absentee ballots to be received by elections offices.

And voters, when you go to the polls, you'll be asked to present a photo ID.

[upbeat music] Welcome, Jessica Holmes, Democratic Nominee for State Auditor, to State Lines.

Thank you for being here.

- It's my pleasure.

- Well, first start out, you're already the sitting state auditor, you were appointed by Governor Cooper.

So, do you consider yourself an incumbent or an open seat candidate for this race?

- I am incumbent.

Everyday, I go to the office and I do the work.

- Tell us about yourself, your legal background.

I know just enough about you, but I can't explain you better than you can explain yourself.

- I'll start by sharing that I was born and raised in rural Eastern North Carolina, a small town called, Maple Hill in Pender County.

The proud product of our public school system, a first generation college student, double Tarheel, go heels.

Forever and always.

And in 2014, I first made history as the youngest person ever elected as a Wade County Commissioner.

Several years later, I had the opportunity to serve as chair of that board, representing over one million constituents and helping to manage an over $1 billion budget.

And here we are today, and I sit at the Council of State as the first woman of color to ever serve on North Carolina's Council of State.

- When do you know you've run your course as a leader, because Wade County Commissioner Chair is a big deal in this state, and you did it, you accomplished it.

You could've likely stayed there a long time, but when do you know it's time to move to something different?

- In my case, I decided to run for Commissioner of Labor, in 2020, and came within about 1% of the vote, receiving over two million votes from across the state as someone who is not an incumbent.

And in terms of knowing when it's time to leave, when it's time to pass the baton, I think you just know it.

And in my case in the Wade County Board of Comissioners, there is still a lot of work to be done and I think I've left a pretty strong template for a lot of that work, particularly as it relates to funding in education, affordable housing, and really focusing in on our most vulnerable communities including our seniors and people with disabilities.

- Interesting you're from Maple Hills in Dupla County.

I know exactly where that is.

- Pender County.

- Pender County.

- Duplan is close.

- Ahh, I guessed wrong.

Heading that way for years and years and years.

My father was on Topsail Beach, so I would go through there from Clinton where I'm from, so we're from the same neck of the woods.

But very few people come from that neck of the woods, and run Wade County Board of Commission.

Tell me about the leadership, what did you learn in Maple Hill that translated for you and was successful in Wade County of all places?

- Well, one thing it taught me is the intricacies of the rural/urban divide.

For example, when it comes to school funding, the Wade County budget allocates about $500 million towards the school system.

The revenue that comes into Pender County is significant less than what Wade County allocates for our school system.

So, it afforded me a very unique perspective, in terms of understanding the challenges that our rural and our urban communities face, which are very distinct.

- Tell me about this auditor's job you were appointed, a little over a year now, somewhere along there?

- Yes.

- How's that job been, what was it about it that made you say, I'm going to, I guess apply, to run and be the state auditor, at least be on the Democratic ticket?

- I will say that I did not apply, and that I was actually not planning to run in 2024, in the 2024 cycle.

- So, you were not, see I was gonna ask you.

- And received a call from the Governor's office and ended up having several conversations wit the Governor, and he said, essentially, Jessica, I prayed on this, and you are the one.

And I was initially hesitant, and one of the things that I actually said directly to him was that black women aren't winning state-wide in North Carolina, and you're asking me to do something impossible.

You want me to start the job, and run for the job, all at the same time, given all of the outside factors of the challenges facing women in politics and people of color in politics.

And he looked at me and essentially said, Jessica, you have made impossible things happen all of your life.

- Well, we look at polls recently, Donald Trump seems to be leading slightly in this state.

He's won the last couple of times.

It's not impossible for a Democrat to win a Trump year.

Roy Cooper's living proof of that, so what do you say to Trump voters who are looking at that auditors race as one of their options on the ballot?

What makes you the best choice, even if they want to go red at the top of the ticket?

- Well, North Carolina is known for sort of zig-zagging when it comes to voting, which is how we ended up with a Democratic Governor, and a largely Republican General Assembly and a Republican Lieutenant Governor.

That said, what I would say to those people is that while the state auditors race isn't very sexy, it's not typically the one that lands in the headlines, it's one of the most important positions in state government when it comes to following the money and making sure it gets to the people in places that it needs to get.

And so, what I would say to those people, is that money isn't red or blue, it's green, and per statute, the state auditor is the state's independent auditor, and therefore while I certainly have a political afflation, that does not and should not come into play when it comes to conducting the work.

And I can assure you that at any given time, it is not unusual for someone on either side of the aisle to be upset with the state auditors office, because my mindset is to just do the work and follow the money, regardless of where it goes.

Particularly passionate about things like hurricane relief, as someone who physically swept flood water out of my living room growing up, as someone who was raised by my grandmother, so I care very deeply about senior care and people with disabilities.

As someone who grew up as the beneficiary of SNAP benefits for example, it's important to me to make sure that our state and our counties get those resources out to people as quickly as possible.

So for me, it's about the work.

I don't take my talking points from any political party and I think most people would tell you that if I have to vote alone, I will, and I'm very much a purpose-driven person in that the thing that allows me to sleep well at night is knowing that I did my best and that I have a clear conscious.

- The auditors signature goes onto all those audits, and you're the public-facing person presenting it.

Tell me about the team underneath it.

Is the auditor someone who rolls his sleeves up and does the audit?

Or is it a more of a leadership position that curates an environment so people who can dive deeply can dive deeply with confidence?

Which way does it go?

- That actually depends on the day.

And so, I am certainly one of those people that's willing to call the team in for a meeting and roll our sleeves up and answer some tough questions about audits, and the direction of the office.

I would say, I have spent my entire life knowing and understanding that there are titles and there are positions and then there's actual leadership.

And I think those things are very distinct, and I work really hard to not just have the state auditor's title, but to be a leader within our team.

I have been very fortunate inheriting a very solid and competent team that is similar to me in that we just want to do the work.

We're not in it for the headlines, we're not in it for the money, we are in it because we love North Carolina and because we want to make sure that the money gets to the people and places that need it most, having been a beneficiary of many of those benefits.

- There's a huge difference in being an appointee to fulfill a term, and then being dually elected for a four year term.

I would think it was cultural, so I have to ask, and I've asked everyone, what kind of culture have you instilled or do you want to instill if you get the voters confidence for the next four years and beyond?

- In terms of the public's trust, I came into this office under very unique circumstances, and it is a top priority for me to rebuild the public's trust and to lead with integrity.

And not just integrity on behalf of North Carolinians, but also integrity inside the office as much as outside of the office.

And so, I work very closely with my team, and I remind them that while my signature goes on the audits, it's a collaboration, it's the team that does the work and it takes all of us.

I often also remind them that the office of the state auditor is not and has never been about one person, and that it's their office and that I am there to help them be successful and to make sure that I am their advocate, and that I provide the direction for the office.

- What should legislators and other government watchdogs expect of you, compared to what they received and expected of Beth Wood, who was in the office until 2023?

- I will note, one thing that they can expect from me is my continued advocacy for additional resources.

There are vacant seats all across state government, and my office is no different in that regard.

So, I will be very consistent in advocating for funding increases for all state employees and also flexibility in the funding that we do receive.

I think they can count on me to be a straight shooter and to say what I mean and for me to mean what I say.

And to know that when I sign an audit, that it has been done with integrity, it has been done in a unbiased and irrefutable way to the best of my ability.

- We've got one minute left in this interview segment.

I want to ask you on behalf of the people of North Carolina, are there certain audits they can expect from you?

Are there certain focuses or attention you're gonna give to certain departments inside our state government, if elected?

- Absolutely.

I'll start with senior care and nursing homes, and making sure that for example, nursing home inspections are happening in a timely manner.

Because one of my goals is to make sure that we peek under the rug for the people can't do so themselves and to speak for the people that are most vulnerable who are on the receiving end of state resources, who may or may not actually be receiving those benefits.

So, for me, the focus of the office is to make sure that every tax dollar goes to where it's suppose to go in the most efficient and effective way for the benefit of all North Carolinians.

- This is Jessica Holmes, folks.

She is the Democratic Nominee for North Carolina Auditor.

Thank you for being on our show and thank you for this interview.

Good luck on the trail, be safe with all those travels.

I wish everyone well.

- Thank you.

- 'Cause after November, it will be back to business as usual.

- I look forward to that.

[Kelly laughs] - Well, thank you for coming on, we'll invite ya on again.

Thank you for watching, folks.

For more information, visit pbsnc.org/vote.

I'm Kelly McCullen, I appreciate you watching and we'll see you soon.

[upbeat music]