- [Announcer] Live from your Public Media Studios, WVVIA presents Keystone Edition reports, a public affairs program that goes beyond the headlines to address issues in Northeastern and central Pennsylvania.

This is Keystone Edition Reports, and now moderator Larry Vojtko.

- Hello, I'm Larry Vojtko.

Climate change is a controversial, but unavoidable topic.

Experts say our reliance on fossil fuels is a big contributor to the greenhouse gases that are behind climate change, but it's not easy just to stop using fossil fuels and go to green energy options all at once.

What are some alternative energy options and how easy or difficult is it to make the switch?

We have our experts here to answer your questions about clean energy.

call 1800-3269842, send an email to keystone@wvia.org or tag us on social with a #keystonereports.

WVIA's Paul Lazar, takes a closer look at RGGI, a regional effort to reduce carbon gases from power plants.

(electronic music) - [Paul] What is RGGI and what does it mean for Pennsylvanians?

RGGI stands for Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative and it's a partnership among states to reduce carbon dioxide emissions from electric power plants in an effort to combat climate change.

The program plans to reduce emissions by charging power plants for each ton of pollution they put out.

In 2019, governor Tom Wolf signed an executive order instructing the State Department of Environmental Protection to write up a regulation to make Pennsylvania the latest addition to RGGI.

As the second largest power producer in the country, Pennsylvania has a large fossil fuel produced power output.

It's also the fourth largest producer of carbon dioxide, which is one of the greenhouse gases that scientists say contributes to climate change.

Supporters site reduced carbon pollution and improve air quality as environmental and health benefits of joining RGGI They also claim that RGGI participation will boost the gross state product and create more than 30,000 jobs.

Opponents say RGGI will hurt coal production in Pennsylvania and end up costing jobs, and there could be a ripple effective and overall drop in energy production in the State.

The average Pennsylvanian could end up paying more for electricity under the program by about $43 a year according to analysts from Penn State.

Experts estimate that the reduced air pollution could reduce the number of asthma attacks in children.

Pennsylvania said to join RGGI in early 2022, but any incoming governor could pull the participation back.

For Keystone Edition Reports, I'm Paul Lazar.

- And now we need to hear from you.

We're ready to take your calls, the number is 18003269842.

You can also email keystone@wvia.org or message us through our social channels using the #keystonereports.

Well let's welcome our guests who are here to share their expertise.

Dr. Marlene Troy is an environmental engineer from Wilkes University has published extensive research on this topic.

Olga Trushina is the Executive Director of SEEDS, a group based in Honesdale that promotes green energy efficiency, renewable energy and sustainable living.

And Rachel Mcdevitt is joining us via zoom.

She's a reporter for another public station WITF in Harrisburg, who's been working on State Impact, Pennsylvania, a collaborative effort to discuss the state's energy economy.

Welcome to everyone, and Rachel Mcdevitt, I'm going to start with you as a follow up to our opening package on RGGI And we've heard that the governor has set us a fort to join this initiative, but t's still not a done deal.

So where do we stand in Harrisburg and Pennsylvania in our participation in RGGI, the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative?

- Sort of in a waiting game right now with The State Legislature.

So you're right, this is an executive action that the Wolf administration is trying to do.

They have finalized a proposed regulation, It has gone through the entire regulatory process, It's gotten public comment, it's been revised and updated based on those comments, it has approval from the major regulatory boards that it needs approval from.

Just around the Thanksgiving Holiday, the Attorney General's office gave it a final approval, which means it does not conflict with existing state law.

So it's pretty much ready to go.

The Wolf administration could implement it as soon as the legislature acts.

So the legislature is holding on to what's called a concurrent resolution that would disapprove of this RGGI rule.

As long as that's sitting in the legislature, the administration cannot take any action on RGGI.

And so The State House has until January-abouts because of their legislative schedule to try to act on that, it is subject to a veto from the governor.

But then it is also, the legislature can try to override that veto as well.

So the process is far from over.

It could still stretch into next year.

- Right, and it's important to note too, that next year's an election year, right, Rachel, will be... - Yes - Will be electing a new governor so that could change things just... We could be back at square one there the current legislature is not inclined to join RGGI, correct?

- That's absolutely right.

The legislature is controlled by Republicans.

Governor Wolf is a Democrat.

They haven't agreed on a whole lot throughout his tenure.

- Right.

- But they are really upset about RGGI because they see it as a power grab by governor Wolf.

They believe that RGGI is a tax because power plants pay for the pollution that they emit under the program.

So they say that it's a tax and that only the legislature has the statutory authority to create a new tax not the governor's office.

Now because the Attorney General's office has just reviewed this and said, the regulation is legal, I'm not sure what their response to that is going to be I think they still believe that this should be in their hands not the governor's.

But they're also very concerned about Pennsylvania's position in the energy economy.

We export a lot of power.

They're afraid that entering this type of a program that charges large emitters is gonna make Pennsylvania less competitive in that sector.

- Well, thank you, Rachel.

This is one method (indistinct) is one of the many methods that have been put forth to reduce the global greenhouse gases.

And so we're gonna take a broader view at this moment and try to get some definitions out there.

And, Dr. Marleene Troy, you are a professor at Wilkes University.

Now in my introduction to this, I mentioned the phrase clean energy, but there's also green energy, there's renewable energy, there's sustainable energy.

It all gets kind of confusing, I would think.

And, sometimes they're used interchangeably, but that's not the case.

Give us some definitions and differentiations for us.

- Okay, be glad to.

Typically when you talk about energy, you're looking at where it's coming from and what are some of the potential results of using it.

So if we have clean, we talk about clean, It would be when we use it, that means that there's minimal either greenhouse gas emissions or other air pollutes.

If we have something green, we'd probably talk about resource use and it's environmental footprint.

So if something's green, it's gonna have a minimal environmental footprint.

Then we've got renewable.

So renewable means, hopefully it's gonna be there every time we go to use it.

It's not a one time thing.

And then sustainable, probably the big picture looking to the future.

So for example, if we had something that's clean green and renewable, an example would be wind energy, an example of something that's clean and renewable is hydro power.

Particularly the large scale hydro power, because there's no emissions from it, but yet it's gonna perhaps take away some resources or there may be some clearing of areas to do that.

So they're similar, but I would say, look at where they're coming from and what's the byproducts of using them.

- Right, and so for instance, something that can be renewable, but not necessarily clean might be biomass.

- Right, because there's gonna be, when you combust it, it's gonna be particulate matters or other things on there.

So even though it's renewable, we've got if you're burning trees or something, but when you do get energy from it, there are pollutants generated from it.

- Well, we'd like you to participate in the conversation.

You can ask a question by using the phone number or email the question or through our social channels at #keystonereports.

Because what we're trying to do is get this conversation started.

And we'd like to take some of the mystery out of all of this.

And one of the organizations in our region that is really trying to put forth resources and information into the hands of those of us who on a day to day basis are making use of this energy is the organization called SEEDS, in Honesdale.

And Olga Trushina is the Executive director of SEEDS.

It is a non-profit organization.

Could you tell us more about SEEDS and what you have to offer your services, the resources?

- Sure, we began in 2008 and it was just a small group of volunteers that was trying to create a local market for renewable resources in NEPA.

And it grew throughout the years, we're now operating for more than 10 years.

And we basically try to develop, renewable energy, energy efficiency, and sustainable living through workshops forums.

We also do free energy efficiency and solar assessments for our members.

We have educational programs like most recently we started a radio program called "Today's Main Ingredient" where we teach listeners about the sustainable food resources that are in our area.

And basically we just work with anyone who wants to work with us and collaborate In different projects, to just use resources efficiently, whether it's energy food or anything else materials that are used in every days life.

- What was kind of impressive to me is you act almost like you're a clearing house in a way, but also you are a kind of a nexus to bring stakeholders together, whether it's a state government, local government a county government, or even for-profit businesses, and then individuals as well.

And large businesses and the small companies and the folks who are into sustainable agriculture, it seems like it's an overarching sort of organization and mission that you have, and I just got wanted to know how you can pro possibly manage and how did you connect with all of these various and differentiated organizations and individuals?

- I like the word that you use, clearing house Larry, I'm gonna use it again, but I think that the reason why we're able to do so much work in our community is because of the people that dedicate their time and energy to the organization.

So, although we have two employees that are part-time myself included, everyone else is a volunteer.

So these are people who truly believe in the mission that SEEDS does, and they give their all to SEEDS.

So one of the things that we're trying to do right now is expand into Lackawanna County, and we're gonna be able to do that thanks to the Scranton Area Foundation Grant that we received, I believe it's called Robert H. Spitz Grant.

So we're gonna be able to do energy efficiency assessments in Lackawanna County by creating collaborations between experts, students in the area, and also residents that want those assessments.

And that way, people are learning, they're implementing energy efficiency measures, and they're basically building the community.

It's an effort that really covers a lot of things, not just this goal of sustainability.

It's connections and just moving the community forward.

- Well, there are really two types of energy I think that a lot of us associate with green energy and that is wind and solar power, and we are hearing so much more about the advantages or advances in solar energy and solar panels.

And of course that requires contractors and construction and installation, and there's a cost to it.

And anybody who has ever been through any kind of construction, building a house, or modeling a house, you know that that you have to jump through different kinds of standards and hoops, but Rachel Mcdevitt, in Pennsylvania, when it comes to solar energy, there really isn't any kind of overarching standards or guidelines.

And could you talk a little bit about that and what that presents perhaps to the difficulty of moving to solar energy and adopting it in a faster fashion.

- Sure, and let me just clarify, Larry, so we're talking about large scale solar adoption, or do you mean like rooftop solar?

- Well, I'm thinking about something that's on a larger scale that would cover an entire community or even a region.

- Yeah, so we are very much a patchwork at this point.

In Pennsylvania, there's no overarching state law or regulation that governs how solar fields would need to be built.

And so these large projects that would be 20 or more megawatts that could cover entire farm fields.

You just imagine when you're driving through the more rural parts of the state, entire farm fields would be covered with large solar panels that are up on sort of stilts that can either turn or not to catch the sun at its most optimal angles.

Those types are what's gonna be needed, we'll need large projects to reach the amount of solar renewable energy that scientists say is necessary to cut our emissions and avoid the worst effects of climate change.

Very large installations, we don't have many rules governing those.

The only things that they have to adhere to statewide are pretty standard erosion and sediment type regulations that all types of construction have to abide by.

Right now, Penn State, Dickinson Law School did a review of all 2,500 state ordinances or local ordinances across the state and found that the very small minority of municipalities have actually taken their time to develop a regulation around what's called grid scale or utility scale solar.

These regulations have to do with how large they can be, what type of like fencing or vegetative borders need to be around them, how far they need to be away from residential homes and things of that nature.

Things that neighbors might have concerns about when a large project is gonna go up next door to them.

So very few have addressed solar at that scale.

A few more have addressed residential solar, or those types of small-like one megawatt installation that say an individual farmer could put on his land.

- Well, we do have a question about solar power, the coming in Kathleen from Wilke-Barre wants to know about home solar options.

Is it feasible in this area?

I think she's talking about the fact that it's gray here a lot.

Are there any other options like geothermal heating for homes.

Anybody have any...

Yes, Olga.

- I can address that.

According to most recent statistics that I've seen I believe more than 50% of homes in Pennsylvania are not good for solar either because they're shaded or it's a multi-tenant building, or it's not oriented the right way.

So one of the options would be to use community solar, which is what other States are doing.

And community solar is basically a bunch of different people come together and they invest in a solar array that is standing somewhere and they all reap the benefits off it.

And there's currently two bills right now that are... People want to move forward.

They're bipartisan bills, but they're kind of stuck in the committee.

So if you really want that option for yourself you should call your representative.

and tell them that you support these two bills.

But other than that, definitely there's other options.

You can also go through your utility and purchase renewable energy through that.

Geothermal is another option, I know that there's a school in Wayne County, well in Polk High School, and they used geothermal to help them with the heating costs.

So that's definitely an option.

- One of the main generators of the greenhouse gas is something that most of us get into every day and that's a car, an automobile.

And until we have solar powered autos and wind powered autos we have to address that.

And gasoline could be getting cleaner thanks to plans that have been set into motion for a new plant that could bring plenty of jobs and money to Luzerne County, Senator John Yudichak shared his thoughts on this plan with WVIA.

- For the next 50, 75, even to 100 years, we're gonna have gasoline cars on the highways of Pennsylvania.

We should have them, be more environmentally friendly by using Nacero gasoline, and the beauty of Nacero gasoline, in using that natural gas feedstock to produce a more environmentally friendly gasoline that can go into your vehicle without modification.

That means we don't have to change our fuel infrastructure system.

We won't have to spend a dime of taxpayer money to create a new system.

We can use the existing system, fuel stations that people are familiar with that go to in their local neighborhoods, you don't have to change the vehicle.

You don't have to change the fuel infrastructure that means in my viewpoint in terms of climate, in terms of economic development, in terms of the taxpayers getting the best bang for their buck in terms of addressing climate change, nacero gasoline and the 6 billion dollar manufacturing facility that they've announced in the Newport Township Nanticoke region Luzerne County is a transformative project on so many levels both economic and in terms of the environment - Well, we're going to get some reaction to that comment, but I also wanna point out that this was a wide ranging conversation we had with Senator Yudichak and the full conversation can be viewed online@wvia.org, but Dr. Marleen Troy, I'll go to you.

What reaction do you have to what he said?

- I understand it, the need for jobs, and I understand the need for looking for options, but I'm wondering, do we really know...

Many of the initiatives are looking to phase out internal and combustion engines.

So one good question... We talked about some of the major auto manufacturers, Ford, GM, Mercedes, and Volvo, are planning to just not producing them by 2030, I believe.

So, I guess the time frame for this is when is gasoline gonna get phased out?

Many of these other initiatives are looking to phase it out and to promote the use of electric cars.

So to me that balance, and then it's still gasoline.

I mean, it's still...

I understand we've got the infrastructure, but gasoline, it's less bad, but, it's still gasoline, it's a flammable liquid there's issues with transportation and using it, and even a cleaner burning fuel.

But there's still emissions coming out of it.

So is it reducing enough to fit into the climate action?

That we need to do as far as the inventories that are being promoted?

- I'd like to spend a little bit more time with you Dr.

Troy, and talk to me about your expertise in this idea of sustainability management.

So explain what that is and give us a little bit of ideas of what you're working on.

- I guess my background before I became to be a professor, it was in hazardous with remediation cleaning up sites.

And then when I came to Wilkes, I taught in the environmental engineering program and I taught waste management, hazardous waste management, solid waste management.

And I always thought there had to be a better way.

One of the most depressing things you can ever go to is a hazardous waste site and see that how barren without that.

So to evolve my teaching, I started learning about sustainability.

And I like to...

I guess phrase it as looking at big picture thinking, sustainability thinking about the future, and it's looking about connections but different things, not just individual entities.

So it's thinking about the future.

How does my energy use align with what I'm doing or my water use, how does it align with how I treat my employees and what products I make.

And I would say it's not an end product, it's a journey.

So you have a goal you can strive to be sustainable, but there's many different ways that you can do that.

So we evolved in that we had interest in it.

I have colleagues in the business school that I was able team with and we work with local small businesses and kind of took a look at what they're doing.

We did some of these energy audits.

We were able to get some of the equipment to do that.

And a lot of people are doing a lot of great things right now, but they may not realize it.

And also how do you quantify it and how do you plan for the future.

So it's, to me, big picture thinking, looking at connections and then planning for the future.

We're quickly running out of time.

We only have a few minutes, but I wanna get to Rachel Mcdevitt because I wanna give you a little bit of time to talk about the state impact initiative, because what we wanna do is make sure people come away with some resources and idea where they can find more information.

So tell us a little bit more about that, Rachel.

- Sure, so State Impact Pennsylvania is a collaboration among the public media stations in Pennsylvania or collaboration among WESA in Pittsburgh, WITF here in Harrisburg, WHYY in Philadelphia and WPSU in State College, WVIA also airs our content.

And so we are four reporters spread across the State working in our own communities on issues that affect the environment, the energy landscape, climate change in Pennsylvania.

And we are really trying to... My focus is on the legislature because I am based in Harrisburg.

So what the lawmakers are doing, what the policy says in Pennsylvania.

But we're also looking at local issues like when they build a new natural gas to gasoline plant or when they build the Ethan Cracker Plant in Beaver County.

Pipelines have been a big issue running through central Pennsylvania.

And so we're also here in central Pennsylvania, the state impact team is also embarking on a new collaboration called Climate Solutions.

And so we're gonna be spending the next year or two looking at solutions in Pennsylvania, things that communities can do, whether they're working what are the best options.

And other things to look at, to help Pennsylvania in this journey to address climate change in the State, either at a local level or whether it's influencing policy.

So we're trying to educate our audience and make sure they have a good handle on what the issues are so that they can make their own decisions.

So Rachel, where can our viewers find more information on state impact and what you've done?

- Great, the easiest way is probably to Google, state impact Pennsylvania because our website is very long it's npr.stateimpact.org/pennsylvania.

But state impact Pennsylvania is the easiest way to find us.

Put it into your search engine.

Or you could also go to your local public media.

- Right.

- Website for articles.

- In fact, this whole program is going to be posted on our website and we'll have resources and links there.

And I'd like to take this opportunity now that our conversation is over.

Thanks so much for participating, and you can visit wvia.org/keystonereports and rewatch the episode on demand anytime online or on the WVIA app.

For Keystone Edition Reports, I'm Larry Vojtko Thank you so much for watching.

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