Live from your public media studios, WVIA presents studios, WVIA presents Keystone additional Arts, a Keystone additional Arts, a public affairs program that public affairs program that goes beyond the headlines goes beyond the headlines to address issues in to address issues in Northeast turn in Central Northeast turn in Central Pennsylvania.

This is Pennsylvania.

This is Keystone Addition Reports.

Keystone Addition Reports.

And now Erica Funke Welcome And now Erica Funke Welcome Keystone Edition Arts, Keystone Edition Arts, where we'll talk about line where we'll talk about line dancing, not the country dancing, not the country kind, but the way kind, but the way cartoonists and cartoonists and illustrators use the lines illustrators use the lines they draw to invite us into they draw to invite us into the dance of life and the dance of life and living rough and tumble as living rough and tumble as it may sometimes be.

As we it may sometimes be.

As we learn from Sara Scinto comic strips have been comic strips have been included in newspapers in included in newspapers in the United States since the the United States since the late eighteen hundreds and late eighteen hundreds and early comic strip was Joe early comic strip was Joe Palca, created by Palca, created by Wilkes-Barre native Ham Wilkes-Barre native Ham Fisher.

Fisher credits his Fisher.

Fisher credits his mother, who had done some mother, who had done some writing and could draw writing and could draw lemon that almost looked lemon that almost looked like one with determination like one with determination to be a cartoonist.

In 1921 to be a cartoonist.

In 1921 Fisher met the inspiration Fisher met the inspiration for Joe Maluka boxer Pete for Joe Maluka boxer Pete Laakso.

Fisher explains.

In Laakso.

Fisher explains.

In a 1948 magazine article a 1948 magazine article here made to Order was the here made to Order was the comic strip character.

I comic strip character.

I had been looking for a big, had been looking for a big, good natured prizefighter good natured prizefighter who didn't like to fight a who didn't like to fight a defender of little guys.

A defender of little guys.

A gentle night.

The setting gentle night.

The setting for the comic strip was one for the comic strip was one that Fisher grew up in that Fisher grew up in mountainous and small towns mountainous and small towns filled with interesting filled with interesting characters.

Joe Palooka was characters.

Joe Palooka was syndicated, appearing in syndicated, appearing in newspapers across the newspapers across the country between 1930 and country between 1930 and 1984. for the success of 1984. for the success of the comic strip led to a the comic strip led to a radio series, movies, a radio series, movies, a television series and comic television series and comic books.

Ham Fisher is books.

Ham Fisher is remembered Joe Beluga remembered Joe Beluga Monument at the base of Monument at the base of Mount Joe Palooka, just Mount Joe Palooka, just outside Wilkes-Barre on outside Wilkes-Barre on Route three, 09. for Route three, 09. for Keystone Addition Reports.

Keystone Addition Reports.

I'm Sarah Scinto W.. V.I.

A I'm Sarah Scinto W.. V.I.

A new ham fisher was there on new ham fisher was there on the wall along with Norman the wall along with Norman Rockwell pieces by N.C. Rockwell pieces by N.C. wife Maxfield Parrish.

wife Maxfield Parrish.

Charles Schulz and more.

Charles Schulz and more.

All part of an exhibition All part of an exhibition at the Sedona Art Gallery, at the Sedona Art Gallery, Wilkes University in Wilkes University in Wilkes-Barre.

titled Wilkes-Barre.

titled Selections from Spadoni Selections from Spadoni Collection of American Collection of American Illustration and Comic Art Illustration and Comic Art in the spring of twenty in the spring of twenty eighteen, a show curated by eighteen, a show curated by Stanley I Grand also on the Stanley I Grand also on the wall, along with Norman wall, along with Norman Rockwell and Charles Schulz Rockwell and Charles Schulz and the rest was Bob and the rest was Bob Eckstein, In an interview Eckstein, In an interview at the time of the opening at the time of the opening reception, WPI ehs Chris reception, WPI ehs Chris Hendrickson asked Eckstein Hendrickson asked Eckstein about the show's focus.

about the show's focus.

Your question is, is do you Your question is, is do you think that the field of think that the field of illustration is in any way illustration is in any way lower gold than, let's say, lower gold than, let's say, a fine arts?

I see that a fine arts?

I see that illustration is vital.

I illustration is vital.

I find it in the storytelling find it in the storytelling genre to go out genre to go out responsibilities, even than responsibilities, even than just doing fine art.

That just doing fine art.

That could be at times could be at times self-indulgent illustration self-indulgent illustration has responsibilities.

You has responsibilities.

You have to communicate.

Both have to communicate.

Both Bob Xed and an earlier Bob Xed and an earlier illustrator, Rose O'Neill, illustrator, Rose O'Neill, who was featured at the who was featured at the O'Dorney Gallery in the O'Dorney Gallery in the fall of twenty twenty three fall of twenty twenty three demonstrate that sense of demonstrate that sense of responsibility.

Bob responsibility.

Bob Eckstein and Heathers and Eckstein and Heathers and Cabbage are our guests Cabbage are our guests around the table as we talk around the table as we talk about the art of about the art of illustration and cartooning illustration and cartooning Headington Cabbage is an Headington Cabbage is an associate professor of art associate professor of art and director of the Sedona and director of the Sedona Gallery at Wilkes Gallery at Wilkes University.

She was the University.

She was the curator of the one Rose curator of the one Rose celebrating the life and celebrating the life and legacy of Rozo Neil, legacy of Rozo Neil, marking the fiftieth marking the fiftieth anniversary of the sword anniversary of the sword Doni Art Gallery in 2023.

Doni Art Gallery in 2023. and Bob Eckstein, who is an and Bob Eckstein, who is an award winning writer, New award winning writer, New Yorker cartoonist, author Yorker cartoonist, author of The New York Times Best of The New York Times Best seller, Footnotes from the seller, Footnotes from the World's Greatest Bookstores World's Greatest Bookstores His cartoons OP Ed's in His cartoons OP Ed's in short stories appear short stories appear regularly in The New York regularly in The New York Times, New York Daily News, Times, New York Daily News, Mad Magazine, Barron's, Mad Magazine, Barron's, Reader's Digest, The Reader's Digest, The Spectator, Wall Street Spectator, Wall Street Journal, among many others.

Journal, among many others.

And he is the world's And he is the world's foremost expert on snowmen.

foremost expert on snowmen.

Seriously, And a very funny Seriously, And a very funny guy.

Greetings, to you both guy.

Greetings, to you both Heather Rose O'Neill was Heather Rose O'Neill was born three and a half miles born three and a half miles from Joe Toluca Mountain, from Joe Toluca Mountain, Introduce us to her.

Yeah, Introduce us to her.

Yeah, Yeah.

And and just a few Yeah.

And and just a few blocks from the sardonic blocks from the sardonic gallery.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So she gallery.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So she was born here in was born here in Wilkes-Barre, 1874. in a Wilkes-Barre, 1874. in a little place called the little place called the Emerald Cottage.

And she Emerald Cottage.

And she was the second child of was the second child of five and ended up kind of five and ended up kind of moving out of Wilkes-Barre, moving out of Wilkes-Barre, started to head west.

She started to head west.

She had very adventurous had very adventurous parents, a very unique parents, a very unique father, who was an father, who was an entrepreneur.

But you might entrepreneur.

But you might also say he was seen ahead also say he was seen ahead of bill collectors.

But of bill collectors.

But they stayed grounded they stayed grounded because of Rosa O'Neill's because of Rosa O'Neill's mother.

who was helping mother.

who was helping keep the family together in keep the family together in a way, Rose spent a lot of a way, Rose spent a lot of her life in Missouri.

She her life in Missouri.

She was very interested in was very interested in illustration and drawing illustration and drawing from a young age when she from a young age when she was 13.

She actually was 13.

She actually entered a drawing contest entered a drawing contest for the Omaha Herald and for the Omaha Herald and she won and she was only 13 she won and she was only 13 And the the Omaha Herald And the the Omaha Herald didn't believe that she didn't believe that she actually made that drawing.

actually made that drawing.

So they had her come down So they had her come down there and draw in person to there and draw in person to prove that she can actually prove that she can actually draw and that it was that draw and that it was that she went to Phi Phi Gold she went to Phi Phi Gold piece and it was that, I piece and it was that, I guess, little award that guess, little award that her father allowed her to her father allowed her to go into drawing at to be go into drawing at to be her life's profession.

He her life's profession.

He wanted her to be an opera wanted her to be an opera singer, and she could sing, singer, and she could sing, too.

She would singer and too.

She would singer and dancer.

She was an actress.

dancer.

She was an actress.

Yeah.

d'Italia Yeah.

And Yeah.

d'Italia Yeah.

And she made it to New York she made it to New York when she was 19.

Yeah.

So when she was 19.

Yeah.

So she had decided she was she had decided she was going to make her way in going to make her way in this industry.

She had to this industry.

She had to be in New York City, so she be in New York City, so she left Missouri and moved to left Missouri and moved to New York.

She lived in a New York.

She lived in a convent too, because she is convent too, because she is a 19 old single woman.

So a 19 old single woman.

So she had to remain proper by she had to remain proper by she started to sell a lot she started to sell a lot of her illustrates until of her illustrates until finally she was employed by finally she was employed by She was the first woman She was the first woman illustrator * magazine.

Now, illustrator * magazine.

Now, remind people who art of remind people who art of that generation.

What that generation.

What Watpac do is political Watpac do is political satire magazine.

She was satire magazine.

She was the only female on staff.

the only female on staff.

She was often given the She was often given the assignment where she would assignment where she would speak for the woman's speak for the woman's perspective or even a perspective or even a person colors perspective.

person colors perspective.

She really, because of her She really, because of her very colorful upbringing, very colorful upbringing, she had a way of she had a way of characterizing that life characterizing that life experience in a way that experience in a way that her male counterparts her male counterparts couldn't.

Does her couldn't.

Does her employment suggest that she employment suggest that she would have had to be would have had to be powerfully good as an powerfully good as an artist?

They wouldn't just artist?

They wouldn't just take the token.

It wasn't take the token.

It wasn't token.

And, you know, token.

And, you know, you're absolutely right.

So you're absolutely right.

So she had to have the skill she had to have the skill to be able to do the job.

to be able to do the job.

Essentially, and there was Essentially, and there was a point when she was at a point when she was at Park where she was somewhat Park where she was somewhat encouraged to neutralize encouraged to neutralize her name.

So after she was her name.

So after she was in her first marriage to in her first marriage to Gray Leatham, she dropped Gray Leatham, she dropped her first name and she was her first name and she was going by O'Neil Leatham and going by O'Neil Leatham and she was, I guess, she was she was, I guess, she was so popular.

She was so much so popular.

She was so much so that she had several fan so that she had several fan girls who send her love girls who send her love letters thinking that she letters thinking that she was a male, illustrate, was a male, illustrate, saying that you really get saying that you really get me.

And that was something me.

And that was something that many people really, that many people really, really caught on with her.

really caught on with her.

The other thing is that in The other thing is that in addition to being savvy and addition to being savvy and talented, she also had an talented, she also had an instinct for fancy, let's instinct for fancy, let's say.

And there was a side say.

And there was a side of her as devoted as she of her as devoted as she was to perhaps women's was to perhaps women's issues.

And so forth.

There issues.

And so forth.

There was a little little little was a little little little critter that she absolutely critter that she absolutely so.

So I guess buried the so.

So I guess buried the plot there a little bit.

plot there a little bit.

But I would have to say, But I would have to say, probably best known for the probably best known for the Kewpie doll.

And this is a Kewpie doll.

And this is a doll that first emerged as doll that first emerged as a comic strip.

Later became a comic strip.

Later became the subject of a major the subject of a major merchandizing campaign that merchandizing campaign that made her millions.

And she made her millions.

And she is the first woman to do is the first woman to do that.

She does not have a that.

She does not have a background in business.

She background in business.

She did not have she wasn't did not have she wasn't that savvy with money.

But that savvy with money.

But this was an idea that this was an idea that caught fire.

And she said caught fire.

And she said that the Kupets came to her that the Kupets came to her in a dream and they tumbled in a dream and they tumbled across her her bed.

And across her her bed.

And then she knew she had to then she knew she had to draw them.

If we take a draw them.

If we take a look at the Coopers and if look at the Coopers and if we know them ourselves, she we know them ourselves, she did.

And there were Cupido did.

And there were Cupido holes in Jello ads.

And so holes in Jello ads.

And so forth that looks like the forth that looks like the work of somebody who would work of somebody who would be just a totally be just a totally sentimental little artist.

sentimental little artist.

But she did have them But she did have them advocating for women's advocating for women's suffrage.

Absolutely.

And suffrage.

Absolutely.

And she was passionate about she was passionate about women's suffrage.

And this women's suffrage.

And this is where I see so much of is where I see so much of the genius in her.

She the genius in her.

She knows that her creation has knows that her creation has somewhat caught fire.

And.

somewhat caught fire.

And.

And then she's seeing the And then she's seeing the power in that.

So she power in that.

So she decided that there could be decided that there could be a way that she could use a way that she could use the Kupets to advocate for the Kupets to advocate for things that she believes in things that she believes in And that was certainly for And that was certainly for the right to vote.

How the right to vote.

How about the movies?

She was a about the movies?

She was a pop star and not just pop star and not just applying your cartooning, applying your cartooning, but really she did but really she did everything was pretty everything was pretty amazing in your story.

It amazing in your story.

It is, isn't it?

And you is, isn't it?

And you actually saw an exhibition actually saw an exhibition in, didn't you, of her work in, didn't you, of her work in Connecticut or was it.

in Connecticut or was it.

No, I've seen it somewhere.

No, I've seen it somewhere.

It wasn't Connecticut, It wasn't Connecticut, though.

Can't place it.

But though.

Can't place it.

But I know her work very well.

I know her work very well.

Actually, I was sort of a Actually, I was sort of a sweet spot for the puck sweet spot for the puck building.

The Puck magazine building.

The Puck magazine was the first humor was the first humor magazines.

There was I magazines.

There was I didn't get a chance to didn't get a chance to submit Tonyehn.

They closed submit Tonyehn.

They closed in like 1918, but could in like 1918, but could building is still there.

building is still there.

This beautiful building, This beautiful building, it's one most beautiful in it's one most beautiful in the world.

in lower the world.

in lower Manhattan.

and at the puck Manhattan.

and at the puck building and Spy magazine building and Spy magazine started with only humor started with only humor magazines as well, isn't to magazines as well, isn't to ask you because with Puck ask you because with Puck in Ladies Home Journal, in Ladies Home Journal, writing Good Housekeeping.

writing Good Housekeeping.

But you there, Magath it.

But you there, Magath it.

Very important to you when Very important to you when you're a Korean spy you're a Korean spy magazine.

Was that the puck magazine.

Was that the puck building?

It was run by building?

It was run by Graydon Carter, who hated Graydon Carter, who hated it.

Vanity Fair, who does it.

Vanity Fair, who does now airmail weekly.

And I'm now airmail weekly.

And I'm actually doing a piece for actually doing a piece for them around the Super Bowl them around the Super Bowl about the super time Super about the super time Super Bowl halftime.

And Barbra Bowl halftime.

And Barbra Streisand reading her Streisand reading her memoir.

And that's the joke memoir.

And that's the joke But but there's a there's But but there's a there's this history with Humor this history with Humor magazine's dying stuff.

And magazine's dying stuff.

And I did work for Mad magazine I did work for Mad magazine National Lampoon.

And it's National Lampoon.

And it's really sad how this is sort really sad how this is sort of a dying art.

And of a dying art.

And magazines are so important.

magazines are so important.

There were important to There were important to Rose O'Neal and they were Rose O'Neal and they were important to us.

Now, as important to us.

Now, as well as newspapers, of well as newspapers, of course, newspapers is course, newspapers is another thing that is another thing that is struggling.

And you talk to struggling.

And you talk to us and I think it's a us and I think it's a surprise if we know some of surprise if we know some of the the news, the names of the the news, the names of magazines you just magazines you just mentioned, sports mentioned, sports Illustrated was really Illustrated was really important for you.

If it important for you.

If it was if a Sports Illustrated was if a Sports Illustrated proby alliterate because I proby alliterate because I grew up as a little kid grew up as a little kid reading a magazine and it reading a magazine and it was something I started was something I started with.

I want to tell a with.

I want to tell a quick story that my mom was quick story that my mom was called to the school and called to the school and the nuns were telling that the nuns were telling that Bob wasn't reading and that Bob wasn't reading and that we need to get him to try we need to get him to try to read as it was.

I didn't to read as it was.

I didn't even begin talking till I even begin talking till I was five.

The first thing I was five.

The first thing I said was something like, said was something like, can I get a word in?

My can I get a word in?

My family wouldn't stop at I family wouldn't stop at I didn't survive until late.

didn't survive until late.

And I started reading And I started reading Sports Illustrated and my Sports Illustrated and my mom convinced the nuns that mom convinced the nuns that we'd be okay for me to we'd be okay for me to bring that magazine to bring that magazine to school.

And that would be school.

And that would be my reading material until, my reading material until, of course, they came out of course, they came out with the swimsuit issue.

with the swimsuit issue.

and the Catholic school and the Catholic school wasn't too crazy about that wasn't too crazy about that But that was also a But that was also a transition as well for the transition as well for the magazine.

where the magazine.

where the magazine started using more magazine started using more photography and sort photography and sort psing out the beautiful phasing out the beautiful artwork was always a dream artwork was always a dream of mine.

to be in Sports of mine.

to be in Sports Illustrated.

And I actually Illustrated.

And I actually reach that goal later in reach that goal later in life.

And one quick story life.

And one quick story about that is that I was about that is that I was going to do the cover.

going to do the cover.

Sports Illustrated at right Sports Illustrated at right at the time that Mickey at the time that Mickey Mantle unfortunately passed Mantle unfortunately passed away the night before and away the night before and they put him on the cover.

they put him on the cover.

Reifel.

And Sports Reifel.

And Sports Illustrated never again ran Illustrated never again ran an illustration for a cover an illustration for a cover And now we all know that.

And now we all know that.

Well, at least I know in my Well, at least I know in my world that Sports world that Sports Illustrated just folded a Illustrated just folded a couple of weeks go.

And couple of weeks go.

And that's happening too much that's happening too much everywhere.

There's too everywhere.

There's too many magazine scenes there.

many magazine scenes there.

They're passing away.

And I They're passing away.

And I do want to mention that do want to mention that Pennsylvania magazine was Pennsylvania magazine was one of the first magazines one of the first magazines in this country.

The editor in this country.

The editor was Thomas Paine, who's no was Thomas Paine, who's no longer with us.

But the longer with us.

But the magazine just last a short magazine just last a short time during the time during the Revolutionary War.

But Revolutionary War.

But another illustration of how another illustration of how important magazines are, important magazines are, and I feel like a great and I feel like a great reason that there's a reason that there's a divide now in our country.

divide now in our country.

is that there's less local is that there's less local news, there's less news, there's less magazines, there's less magazines, there's less local newspapers, and it local newspapers, and it really hurts because people really hurts because people close it together.

When you close it together.

When you have that, you have that have that, you have that communication instead of communication instead of having maybe two major news having maybe two major news sources, when you had any sources, when you had any kind of public book signing kind of public book signing or a presentation, everyone or a presentation, everyone does want to know about the does want to know about the magazine that they magazine that they associate with cartoons, associate with cartoons, and that's The New Yorker.

and that's The New Yorker.

And they want to know, what And they want to know, what about you and the single about you and the single gag cartoon?

And what about gag cartoon?

And what about submitting things to the submitting things to the New Yorker?

It's open for New Yorker?

It's open for anyone that anyone could go anyone that anyone could go up to the plate and try to up to the plate and try to hit one over the right hit one over the right field wall.

It's there for field wall.

It's there for people because it's a it's people because it's a it's an open thing.

But, you an open thing.

But, you know, you have also a know, you have also a sensibility that you're sensibility that you're trying to communicate your trying to communicate your ideas in a funny way.

And ideas in a funny way.

And it does take time.

When I it does take time.

When I was first trying to get a was first trying to get a New Yorker, I was lucky.

I New Yorker, I was lucky.

I had someone to mentor me.

had someone to mentor me.

Sam Gross, who brought me Sam Gross, who brought me and introduced me.

And I and introduced me.

And I did sell like my first did sell like my first drawing, which was, you drawing, which was, you know, uncommon.

But I did know, uncommon.

But I did try to learn after that try to learn after that everything I could on the everything I could on the subject.

And I absorb every subject.

And I absorb every magazine.

I keep my hands magazine.

I keep my hands on.

And even today, I'm on.

And even today, I'm still learning.

And that is still learning.

And that is you know, things can get you know, things can get worse, can't get worse, but worse, can't get worse, but they can get funnier.

So I they can get funnier.

So I tried to twist things tried to twist things around to take things I around to take things I learned in the news and learned in the news and things over here and see if things over here and see if I can put a twisted and I can put a twisted and make it more pleasurable or make it more pleasurable or make it more possible for make it more possible for us all to get through these us all to get through these times.

And you have told us times.

And you have told us in the past that it's not in the past that it's not always that you are always that you are accepted in your accepted in your submissions and that submissions and that sometimes you can go back sometimes you can go back and tweak cartoon and make and tweak cartoon and make it more to the point or it more to the point or more succinct or it's more succinct or it's always evolving.

As the always evolving.

As the news evolves, did things news evolves, did things change today?

Today I sold change today?

Today I sold a cartoon and it was a a cartoon and it was a cartoon of those yard cartoon of those yard election signs to vote for, election signs to vote for, like, you know, whoever like, you know, whoever you're voting for.

And you you're voting for.

And you put on your yard.

And I had put on your yard.

And I had a whole yard of a made up a whole yard of a made up of talus with.

So that of talus with.

So that involves have a germ of an involves have a germ of an idea.

And I'm trying to idea.

And I'm trying to think of when I might be think of when I might be doing.

I'm concerned about doing.

I'm concerned about museums, for instance.

and museums, for instance.

and I'm concerned about the I'm concerned about the latest thing that's latest thing that's changing with museums is changing with museums is how do we deal with native how do we deal with native Americans?

And in displays, Americans?

And in displays, there will we show them?

there will we show them?

And so I did a cartoon of a And so I did a cartoon of a banner in front of the museum that said everything must go this way, could get must go this way, could get people thinking, see things people thinking, see things in a different way and not in a different way and not trying to in any way be trying to in any way be political as mu as political as much as pvoke thought, try to get provoke thought, try to get peg pple to thinknd reading about n bout it.

Mad magazine.

There wae Tre was thaphrase engaged levitand that h sounds li maybe somof sous like may some of the roseh t roses funith the wi the Kups was levi where he Kupers s levity whe there light andut it was eaged, righ And the there't w engaged, ght.

And the idea ws ia was too good this in a nny way.

Thawas n a funny y.hat s their phisophy.

Y.

That encourang for allf us to gd for hers, buts tdo good foothers, but keep ite keep itight.

Bo Re us a youBob.acof youbuts and y, Bob.

Eacof you iyour ownay, ve n your o way, ha Re us writtenoo as we.

I'ms writt books as ll.

I'm olding onef Bob's nest in my hand and Rose wte novel She did.

Youote novels.

.

illustrated theherself.

Sheid?

Yes.

And one sw. She didYes.

And o show.

But she also illuratednovels.

.

B she also illustrated her husband's novels as her hband's novels as well.

Buthe wrote The ell.

But she wrote The Lives of Edwhich was r Lives of Ed, which was her first novel in 1984, which was somewhat of a lovwhher triangle.

which which many like to think it was a semi auf auto biogphical kind of love.

storyI know.

I know love.

story.

I kn.

I know Very telling.

Yeah, What what were her she.

She Veryt what were her she.

She painted as well.

as she did painted as well.

ashe did a little bit of painting.

a little bit of painting.

She primarily wasoing pen She pmarily was doing pen and i.

After she was established in her career, she actually decided she she actually decided she was going tgo to Paris was going to go to Paris and learn how to proper paint and she did.

And e did some really beautiful did some really beautiful paintings.

But it wasn't pntings.

But it wasn't her preference.

She really her preference.

She really preferred the pen and ink preferred the pen and ink drawings and it would maybe drawings and it would maybe kind add some wercolor kind add some watercolo into them.

after the fact into em.

after the fact.

And is really kind of a And it's really kind of a cool thing about that.

Is cool thing about that.

Is Bonny Brook was her estate Bonny Brook was her estate in Missouri.

And in 1940, in Missouri.

And in 1940, 70 actually burned down, 70 actually burned down, you know, just just really you know, just just reay sad and unfortunate thing.

sad and unfortunatehing.

And but there has been an And but there has been an organization of very organization of very committed volunteers who committed volunteers who have spent years raising have spenyears raising money and rebuilt it.

money and rebuilt it.

However, it's all kind of However, it's all kind of manicured with gardens and manicuredith gardens and such.

And they have a such.

And they have a gardeni club there who gardening club there who every year they're digging every year they're digging up and making new beds.

up and making new beds.

They have found her They have found her watercolors in the garden watercolors in the garden.

Isn't that cool?

Yeah.

Isn't that cool?

Yeah.

That's really true.

Yeah.

That's really true.

Yeah.

So it's wonderful.

All So it's wonderful.

All these little archives still these little archives still coming out.

You look this coming out.

You look this together.

Rose O'Neal is together.

Rose O'Neal is menso scary, talented, and menso scary, talented, and I wish I could have the I wish I could have the impact that she's made with impact that she's made with society.

We have.

She made society.

We have.

She made these inroads with these inroads with different things that I different things that I hope to do.

I tried to hope to do.

I tried to raise awareness for museums raise awareness for museums and I did it when my books.

and I did it when my books.

I try to raise awareness books.

But she really reached the numbers and she reached the numbers and she reached the public like so reached the public like so few people have.

That's why few people have.

That's why she's so inspirational.

I she's so inspirational.

I know.

I know.

She's know.

I know.

She's incredible.

I mean, even incredible.

I mean, even just when she was looking just when she was looking at so, you know, trying to at so, you know, trying to raise awareness for raise awareness for suffrage and trying to back suffrage and trying to back suffrage, she would she had suffrage, she would she had Penthouse in Washington Penthouse in Washington Square that she hung Square that she hung banners outside of her banners outside of her window.

She figured she window.

She figured she could do more with her art could do more with her art than she could was speaking than she could was speaking She didn't feel confident She didn't feel confident speaking.

So she had these speaking.

So she had these stunts that she would do.

stunts that she would do.

Here she is on the.

With Here she is on the.

With her sister, right?

Yes.

Yes her sister, right?

Yes.

Yes Callista and I have a hunch Callista and I have a hunch she would be a great she would be a great speaker better than me to.

speaker better than me to.

She was she was charismatic She was she was charismatic She was just a spitfire.

She was just a spitfire.

You know, she just really You know, she just really like she was known to lay, like she was known to lay, to sit on her back porch to sit on her back porch and just si all the time and just sing all the time and smoke a lot of cigaret.

and smoke a lot of cigaret.

But you shared with me But you shared with me earlier that dad also had earlier that dad also had times he was in a cave or times he was in a cave or something.

like that.

Bad something.

like that.

Bad ground to get through that ground to get through that was just.

Yes.

Yeah.

I mean was just.

Yes.

Yeah.

I mean one of the things about her one of the things about her father, William Patrick father, William Patrick O'Neill, you know, try a O'Neill, you know, try a lot of businesses was just l of businesses was just ongoing, kind of keeping ongoing, kind of keeping moving.

Selling books, moving.

Selling books, selling sewing machines, selling sewing machines, insurance, real estate.

So insurance, real estate.

So kind kept moving and they kind kept moving and they kept moving west.

And there kept moving west.

And there was a point where they they was a point where they they get to Bonnie Brook and get to Bonnie Brook and they're living in the they're living in the middle of nowhere.

Bonnie middle of nowhere.

Bonnie Brooke is in the middle of Brooke is in the middle of nowhere.

However, William nowhere.

However, William Patrick decided that it's Patrick decided that it's still too close to people still too close to people and he moved about 30 miles and he moved about 30 miles further west into a cave further west into a cave and she helped support the and she helped support the failed deal sale of her failed deal sale of her illustrations.

sent that illustrations.

sent that sent her.

So she went to sent her.

So she went to college.

Yeah.

She wasn't college.

Yeah.

She wasn just selling illustration.

just selling illustration.

She's selling it the She's selling it the biggest, toughest places to biggest, toughest places to break into.

You're right.

break into.

You're right.

Very impressive.

You're Very impressive.

You're right.

And so this show right.

And so this show that you had and this that you had and this remarkable catalog that you remarkable catalog that you produced, Heather, with produced, Heather, with essays and wonder four essays and wonder four wonderful illustrations of wonderful illustrations of the illustrator is is the illustrator is is important in the overall important in the overall world of getting what Bob world of getting what Bob is saying out to those of is saying out to those of us who don't know.

Yeah, us who don't know.

Yeah, yeah.

I think so.

I think yeah.

I think so.

I think she's somebody who's under she's somebody who's under celebrated and really has celebrated and really has made a mark in a time that made a mark in a time that wasn't really set up for wasn't really set up for women to succeed.

I mean, women to succeed.

I mean, go go back and think, you go go back and think, you know, she's changing her know, she's changing her name so she could make that name so she could make that living.

She was O'Neil living.

She was O'Neil Leatham for a while and Leatham for a while and then she was O'Neil L. When then she was O'Neil L. When she when that sort of went she when that sort of went south.

But then she goes south.

But then she goes back to Rose O'Neil and back to Rose O'Neil and that becomes something very that becomes something very valuable.

And then she's valuable.

And then she's helping to boost, say, like helping to boost, say, like Jello and Kellogg's, Jello and Kellogg's, Colgate and, you know, like Colgate and, you know, like an all of those businesses an all of those businesses by virtue of the Cupid's by virtue of the Cupid's piece.

Yeah.

I mean, this piece.

Yeah.

I mean, this is before Disney.

You know, is before Disney.

You know, this is where any of that this is where any of that there wasn't a precedent.

there wasn't a precedent.

She was laying that ground.

She was laying that ground.

Yeah.

And so we see in your Yeah.

And so we see in your exhibition that has been at exhibition that has been at the Psaltery Teacups and the Psaltery Teacups and ended and like major ended and like major merchandizing campaign, you merchandizing campaign, you know, so, you know, the know, so, you know, the Kupets became dolls in Kupets became dolls in about, well, different about, well, different sizes because she believed sizes because she believed that all children should, that all children should, no matter how much money no matter how much money their family had, should their family had, should have access to dolls.

They have access to dolls.

They also should look like the also should look like the the owner.

So she made the owner.

So she made dolls of color.

You know, dolls of color.

You know, you saw African-American you saw African-American dolls.

I mean, that was an dolls.

I mean, that was an one thing about her is that one thing about her is that she felt very strongly that she felt very strongly that the faces on the smallest the faces on the smallest dolls had to have the same dolls had to have the same attention as the largest attention as the largest dolls because every child dolls because every child should be seeing the same should be seeing the same care.

I'm interested in I care.

I'm interested in I don't mean to bring you don't mean to bring you both together, but there both together, but there are interesting things to are interesting things to bounce off.

Rose and Bob in bounce off.

Rose and Bob in this way.

She had this way.

She had characters were not they characters were not they were like the alter egos of were like the alter egos of the cute piece and they the cute piece and they were called what the Sweet were called what the Sweet Monsters they are now.

They Monsters they are now.

They were inspired by the were inspired by the landscape.

Absolutely.

So I landscape.

Absolutely.

So I had mentioned before that had mentioned before that she used to like to sit on she used to like to sit on her body, but porch usually her body, but porch usually when the sun was going down when the sun was going down and she would look into the and she would look into the woods, it was all woods, it was all surrounded by woods and she surrounded by woods and she would look at the forms would look at the forms that would come out from that would come out from the woods.

And those were the woods.

And those were what inspired the sweet what inspired the sweet monsters.

They were these monsters.

They were these monsters coming through monsters coming through from the forest.

Fassett.

from the forest.

Fassett.

And it was as if I don't And it was as if I don't know whether there she know whether there she wasn't.

I'm sure as the wasn't.

I'm sure as the saying, I'm reading Freud saying, I'm reading Freud and this is from my and this is from my subconscious, but it looks subconscious, but it looks like these are figures that like these are figures that are mysteriously.

Yes.

And are mysteriously.

Yes.

And yeah.

Yeah, she's she was yeah.

Yeah, she's she was very interested in union very interested in union thought and she was thought and she was definite thinking about how definite thinking about how to interpret her dreams and to interpret her dreams and such.

I wanted to ask such.

I wanted to ask whether there are in the whether there are in the snow men world.

Is there snow men world.

Is there there the happy cheery ones there the happy cheery ones with the carrot nose and with the carrot nose and the wonderful broom.

But the wonderful broom.

But were there are there kinds were there are there kinds of from people's.

Are there of from people's.

Are there kind of snowbanks?

Yes.

I kind of snowbanks?

Yes.

I mean, the snowman got mean, the snowman got interested because it did interested because it did have that there's these have that there's these skeletons in the closet skeletons in the closet that use elements of things that use elements of things we wouldn't expect about we wouldn't expect about snowman making the the snowman making the the massacre of 60 90 and the massacre of 60 90 and the miracle of fifteen eleven miracle of fifteen eleven or early forms of Pernot or early forms of Pernot and political commentary.

and political commentary.

And there's violence and And there's violence and sex in history.

The Snowman sex in history.

The Snowman because before Frosty Snow because before Frosty Snow making was an adult making was an adult activity.

And it was activity.

And it was something that was like something that was like Joseph folk art.

It really Joseph folk art.

It really was one the earliest forms was one the earliest forms of folk art.

And so it of folk art.

And so it there's all these great there's all these great stories about snowman stories about snowman making.

And it was a very making.

And it was a very exciting project to go exciting project to go through that period which I through that period which I spent like about seven or spent like about seven or eight years researching eight years researching around the world.

Who made around the world.

Who made the first nomad and you the first nomad and you actually reveal in that actually reveal in that book that we just saw the book that we just saw the the first image you could the first image you could find and it was where, you find and it was where, you know, the earliest document know, the earliest document station is in a Bible that station is in a Bible that I found at the Royal I found at the Royal Library at The Hague.

And Library at The Hague.

And you said this library that you said this library that has the largest collection has the largest collection of images at eight million of images at eight million and I spent days there with and I spent days there with the Magna Feinglass, go the Magna Feinglass, go through every print and through every print and every illuminated Manushi every illuminated Manushi script.

And with the help script.

And with the help of a team of experts, we of a team of experts, we found a little illustration found a little illustration in the 13 O8 book of ours, in the 13 O8 book of ours, which is like a Bible and which is like a Bible and it's a spectacular image, it's a spectacular image, too, because it insults to too, because it insults to religion at the same time.

religion at the same time.

It's next to a solemn It's next to a solemn passage.

The crucifixion of passage.

The crucifixion of Christ.

It's also an Christ.

It's also an anti-Semitic image.

It's a anti-Semitic image.

It's a whole rigmarole.

It's very whole rigmarole.

It's very sort of sad and yet sort of sad and yet spectacular way to begin spectacular way to begin the history of the snowman.

the history of the snowman.

Well, we are going to Well, we are going to surprise and share Big Bob surprise and share Big Bob is not just funny.

And a is not just funny.

And a cartoonist and a writer and cartoonist and a writer and an expert on snowmen.

He's an expert on snowmen.

He's also an opera producer.

So also an opera producer.

So we're going to share with we're going to share with you in as close something you in as close something that's remarkable from his that's remarkable from his backyard.

I want to thank backyard.

I want to thank our guests, Heather and Bob our guests, Heather and Bob and you for watch for and you for watch for information on this topic.

information on this topic.

including links to our including links to our guests and resources.

guests and resources.

Please visit WPI dot org Please visit WPI dot org slash Keystone and click on slash Keystone and click on Keystone Edition Arts.

And Keystone Edition Arts.

And remember, you can watch remember, you can watch this episode or any this episode or any previous episode on demand previous episode on demand anytime online or on the WB anytime online or on the WB a app for Keystone Addition a app for Keystone Addition I'm Erica Funke.

Thank you I'm Erica Funke.

Thank you for watching.

Now, if Rose for watching.

Now, if Rose saw elves in the trees and saw elves in the trees and bushes of Missouri, Bob bushes of Missouri, Bob sees squirrels who aspire sees squirrels who aspire to sing opera at the Met The