- STATE LAWMAKERS CONTINUE DISCUSSING WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN SHOULD THEY REIN IN LOCAL PROPERTY TAX HIKES AND PRESIDENT TRUMP VISITS FORT BRAGG AND RAISES ATTENTION ON THE WHATLEY COOPER SENATE RACE.

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I'M KELLY MCCULLEN JOINING ME TODAY GREAT ANALYSTS, GOOD FRIENDS: SKYE DAVID OF NEW FRAME INCORPORATED IS TO MY RIGHT REPRESENTATIVE SARAH CRAWFORD THE DEMOCRAT FROM WAKE COUNTY JOINS US IN SEAT 2 WITH SENATOR BENTON SAWREY THE REPUBLICAN REPRESENTING JOHNSTON COUNTY IN SEAT 3 COLIN CAMPBELL OF WUNC NEWS IN SEAT 4.

HELLO EVERYBODY.

I GAVE YOU THE CHEAT SHEET.

YOU CAN SEE WHAT TOPICS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT I HOPE YOU'RE READY TO FILL A HALF-HOUR FOLKS HAVE HIGH EXPECTATIONS OF YOU.

- WE'LL DO OUR BEST.

- ALL RIGHT, LET'S START WITH THE STATE HOUSE COMMITTEE CONSIDERING PROPERTY TAX REFORMS THEY KEEP MEETING AND THEY CONTINUE DISCUSSIONS THIS WEEK ONE ISSUE IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE CLEAR TO THE COMMITTEE IS THAT FEDERAL FUNDING CHANGES TO SERVICES LIKE MEDICAID AND FOOD STAMPS COULD PUSH ADMINISTRATIVE COSTS ON TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BUDGETS JUST AS THE STATE LEGISLATURE MIGHT WOULD IMPLEMENT REFORMS ON HOW TO TAX PROPERTIES FOR LOCAL REVENUE.

CRITICS ARE URGING CAUTION REFORM SUPPORTERS SAY HEY LOCAL GOVERNMENT SHOULD OFFER HIGH QUALITY BUT VERY LIMITED SCOPE SERVICES BEFORE DECIDING TO RAISE ANYONE'S PROPERTY TAXES.

THAT SETS THE TONE COLIN THAT'S THE WAY I HEARD IT.

IT WAS LIKE WE COULD REFORM PROPERTY TAXES BUT FIRST LET'S HEAR ABOUT HOW MUCH EXTRA IS GOING TO COST LOCAL GOVERNMENTS.

- BUDGETS ARE GONNA HAVE TO INCREASE AND THEN WE'LL TALK ABOUT TRY TO CUT DOWN THEIR PROPERTY TAXES THAT WE ALREADY FEEL LIKE ARE TOO HIGH EVEN BEFORE THEY TAKE ON ALL THESE FEDERAL - WHY WOULD REPUBLICANS WHO RUN THE ANY HOUSE COMMITTEE LIKE THAT?

WHY WOULD YOU START WITH HOW EXPENSIVE IT'S GOING TO BE AND THEN WE'LL GET TO THE TAX CUTS FOR THE GOVERNMENTS THAT HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.

- I FEEL LIKE THEY'RE RECOGNIZING THAT THAT'S THE PRESSURE THEY'RE GONNA GET FROM LOCAL LEADERS AT THE COUNTY AND LOCAL LEVEL I MEAN THE ISSUE WITH THIS FEDERAL THING IS THAT YOU GOT THESE NEW WORK REQUIREMENTS FOR THINGS LIKE FOOD STAMPS AND FOR MEDICAID AND IT'S ULTIMATELY GONNA BE UP TO PEOPLE AT THE COUNTY LEVEL YOUR DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SERVICES THAT ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTS THAT FIGURES OUT OUR PEOPLE ACTUALLY MEETING THESE WORK REQUIREMENTS DO THEY QUALIFY AND THEY PROBABLY HAVE TO HIRE MORE PEOPLE AND THAT'S GONNA COST MONEY AND SO AT THE SAME TIME THAT THAT'S GONNA BE A PRESSURE THEY'RE GONNA GET FROM THE COUNTIES AS WE NEED THE STATE TO HELP US OUT AT THE SAME TIME THE COUNT THE STATE IS SAYING YOUR PROPERTY TAXES ARE ALREADY TOO HIGH DON'T DON'T LOOK TO US.

DON'T LOOK TO RAISING TAXES AS THE SOLUTION TO DEAL WITH THIS PROBLEM - YES, SENATOR SAWREY, IT'S NOTHING BUT THE FEDS PASSING THINGS TO YOU YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE COSTS AND GOING WITH THE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS HAVE TO STEP UP IN SOME AREAS.

SO, UM, JUST SOLVE IT ALL IN THIS ONE MINUTE OR SO THAT WE HAVE TO DISCUSS.

- - YEAH SO I THINK WE'RE ACTUALLY MISSING SOME OF THE ISSUES WITH THE CHANGES FROM HR 1 AND THE PROPERTY TAX AND THE COST A LOT OF THAT MONEY IS ACTUALLY PAID FOR BY STATE AND FEDERAL SOURCES THAT TRICKLES DOWN TO THE COUNTIES.

IT'S IT'S NOT REALLY COUNTY PROPERTY TAX DOLLARS AND IF THE COUNTIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS THINK THAT IT'S TOO MUCH TO BEAR AND IT'S TOO MUCH COST I THINK IT'S A GOOD OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT CENTRALIZING AND REGIONALIZING SOME OF THESE SERVICES.

I'LL USE UTAH AS AN EXAMPLE THEY HAVE A DEPARTMENT OF WORKFORCE SOLUTIONS WHERE THEY HAVE REGIONAL HUBS WHERE YOU CAN HAVE UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT DISCUSSIONS SNAP BENEFIT DISCUSSIONS CHILD CARE DISCUSSIONS MEDICAID DISCUSSIONS AND IT REALLY I THINK LEANS INTO THE PRINCIPLE THAT SOMETIMES WE SHOULD LOOK AT THESE THINGS.

AND I'LL BORROW SENATOR BERGER'S TERM, A SAFETY TRAMPOLINE RATHER THAN A SAFETY NET, RIGHT?

THE GOAL FOR SOME OF THESE PROGRAMS SHOULD BE TO FIND A WAY TO GET YOU OFF OF THE SOCIAL WELFARE PROGRAMS GET YOU A JOB FIND A PRIVATE EMPLOYER SPONSORING INSURANCE PLANS.

GET IT WHERE YOU DON'T NEED OR ALLOWING THESE GOVERNMENT SERVICES TO DO SO.

SO I THINK WHEN WE'RE HAVING THESE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT COST OF THE COUNTY LEVEL WITH THESE CHANGES FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT HOW WE DO THINGS - DOES THE STATE LEGISLATURE HAVE TO GET IN AND REFORM THAT TO ALLOW REGIONAL HUBS TO CONSOLIDATE?

WHAT WOULD BE OTHERWISE COUNTY BY COUNTY SERVICES?

I JUST HAVEN'T I'VE NOT DIVED THAT DEEPLY.

- YEAH, SURE.

WE ARE WE ARE A STATE SUPERVISED COUNTY ADMINISTERED PROGRAM, WE HAVE A HUNDRED DIFFERENT DSS OFFICES IN A HUNDRED COUNTIES I THINK I HEARD A DSS DIRECTOR THE OTHER DAY SAY WHEN YOU'VE SEEN ONE DSS OFFICE THAT'S IT YOU'VE SEEN ONE DSS OFFICE AND THE WAY IT OPERATES AND WORKS YEAH THE WAY IT HAPPENS IN JONES COUNTY IS DIFFERENT THE WAY HAPPENS IN JOHNSTON COUNTY IS DIFFERENT THE WAY IT HAPPENS IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY.

IN EACH COUNTY HAS HIS OWN CHALLENGES WITH FUNDING STAFFING RESOURCES AND EXPERTISE FOR THESE PROGRAMS.

WE'VE BEEN DOING IT FOR A LONG TIME THIS WAY THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S THE RIGHT WAY SO WITH THESE COSTS AND WITH SOME OF THE THE INCREASES WITH WITH MEDICAID WHAT'S COMING UP FROM THE FEDERAL LEVEL?

I THINK WE PROBABLY SHOULD TAKE A FRESH LOOK AT THE WAY THINGS WE'RE DOING ACROSS NORTH CAROLINA.

- REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD I HAVE NOTICED WHEN THIS IDEA OF PROPERTY TAX REFORM AND DOING THINGS BETTER REGIONALLY IF NOT LOCALLY DEMOCRATS OFTEN SHAKE THEIR HEAD DOWN WITH REPUBLICANS WITH SOME NUANCE THERE, YOU KNOW.

HEY, DON'T DON'T LET THE HORSE COMPLETELY OUT OF THE BARN, BUT WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THIS?

IT'S AN INTERESTING IDEA.

- YEAH, ABSOLUTELY YOU KNOW I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH SENATOR SAWREY ABOUT AND WE AGREE A LOT WE GET TO WORK ON A LOT OF DIFFERENT ISSUES TOGETHER BUT WHEN WE THINK ABOUT HOW WE CAN KIND OF CENTRALIZE SOME OF THESE SERVICES THAT ARE BEING REQUIRED BY HR 1 AROUND WORK REQUIREMENTS.

I THINK IT'S A GOOD OPPORTUNITY FOR THE STATE TO LOOK AT HOW CAN WE DO THAT DIFFERENTLY?

WE ARE ALREADY ASKING THE COUNTIES TO DO QUITE A BIT AND THEY'RE DOING MORE WITH LESS ALREADY AND I THINK THIS ISSUE OF PROPERTY TAXES.

WE HAVE TO ENTER IT PRETTY CAREFULLY PROPERTY TAXES ARE THE PRIMARY SOURCE OF REVENUE FOR OUR COUNTIES AND SO WE CAN'T JUST TAKE IT AWAY OR LIMIT IT WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT HOW WE'RE GONNA REPLACE THAT REVENUE IMMEDIATELY.

THEY STILL HAVE TO DO FOSTER CARE SERVICES THEY'RE STILL GONNA HAVE TO ADMINISTER ADMINISTER A LOT OF DIFFERENT SERVICES AND COUNTIES HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO PAY FOR IT ALL.

- ARE YOU BUYING THAT THE ADMIN COST THE PROPOSED ADMINISTRATIVE COST OF WORK REQUIREMENTS AND ALL IS THAT A REAL COST?

OR ARE PEOPLE USING THAT AS A POLITICAL FOOTBALL BECAUSE THEY MIGHT OPPOSE WORK REQUIREMENTS FOR SOCIAL SERVICES?

- I THINK IT'S A REAL COST I THINK WHETHER YOU OPPOSE IT OR YOU'RE A PROPONENT OF WORK REQUIREMENTS WORK REQUIREMENTS HAVE A REAL COST SOMEBODY HAS TO DO THAT PAPERWORK.

SOMEBODY HAS TO DOUBLE-CHECK SOMEBODY HAS TO DO THE REDETERMINATIONS AND THAT IS ALL JUST EXTRA WORK EXTRA TIME ON TOP OF A LOT OF SERVICES THAT THESE COUNTIES - A WAY THEY DO IT BETTER?

- YEAH.

YEAH, I THINK THERE IS A WAY THAT THAT COUNTIES CAN DO IT BETTER THE CHALLENGE IS IS THAT WE'RE COMING UP AGAINST SOME DEADLINES WHERE WE'VE GOT TO PUT THIS PUT THIS IN PLACE.

AND I THINK IT'S GONNA TAKE SOME RESOURCES TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO THAT BETTER SO THAT WE CAN.

- BUT SKYE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT POLITICAL POWER AND IF THE SENATE IN THE HOUSE GET TOGETHER AND GO, YOU KNOW THESE COUNTY GOVERNMENT SHOULD RELINQUISH POWER ON A REGIONAL BASIS SAID THE TWO BODIES WHO LIKE TO TAKE POWER AND KEEP IT FOR THEMSELVES AND WILL ACTUALLY GO TO COURT WITH JOSH STEIN OVER THIS.

SORT THAT FOR ME, PLEASE.

- THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY HAS ALL THE POWER, THAT'S JUST A FACT.

SO THEY CAN TAKE AWAY WHATEVER THEY WANT TO TAKE AWAY FROM THE COUNTIES AND MAKE THAT DETERMINATION WHAT IS OR IS NOT WITHIN THEIR CONTROL.

- I THINK WE NEED TO REFRAME THIS.

WE'RE NOT TAKING IT AWAY.

I DON'T THINK - WE DON'T WANT TO DO IT AT THE LEGISLATURE I THINK WE'RE TALKING ABOUT REFORM TO SUPPORT THE WORK THAT HAS ALREADY HAPPENING IN THE COUNTIES.

THAT'S WHAT I'M GONNA SAY.

- SURE, IT'S I MEAN AGAIN I MEAN THERE'S GONNA BE AN EXECUTIVE FUNCTION THAT GOES ALONG WITH IT I DON'T WANT TO GET BACK THE COST FUNCTION ABOUT THE SO ME AGAIN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE COST FROM THE STATE LEVEL AND HOW WE MAKE THE CHANGES TO THE MEDICAID FUNDING FORMULA TO PAY FOR THAT.

SO I DO THINK THAT THERE IS A CERTAIN POLITICAL ELEMENT TO IT AS TO WHAT THE COUNT - AND THEY'RE LINKING TWO THINGS THAT YES SURE, THERE IS A LINK THERE.

BUT REALLY THE THE I MEAN THE DOLLARS ARE FLOWING THROUGH RALEIGH TO PAY FOR A LOT OF THIS NOT NECESSARILY THE COUNTIES.

- WE'RE HERE.

WE'RE HERE FROM RALEIGH.

WE'RE HERE TO HELP YOU AT THE LOCAL LEVEL THAT'S BUT HEY, LET'S BUILD ON THIS.

LEGISLATORS WERE GIVEN A MENU OF PROPERTY TAX REFORM OPTIONS THIS WEEK BY A GROUP CALLED THE TAX FOUNDATION.

THIS IS A FOUNDATION TECHNICALLY NONPARTISAN BUT LARGELY CONSIDERED TO BE BUSINESS FRIENDLY AND PRACTICAL POLITICS CENTER-RIGHT.

PROPERTY TAX ELIMINATION IS ONE SENATOR SAWREY LAWMAKERS RECOGNIZE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS DO NEED LOCAL REVENUE NOT TO MENTION SCHOOL FUNDING.

THESE TAX ASSESSMENTS COULD BE CAPPED SOMEWHERE THREE TO FIVE PERCENT ANNUALLY YOU CAN HAVE LOCAL VOTERS DECIDE EVERY PROPERTY TAX INCREASE LIMITING TAX INCREASES ON EXISTING PROPERTIES, BUT NOT NEW CONSTRUCTION IS ANOTHER OPTION.

HAS ANYTHING BEEN FLOATED THROUGH YOUR OFFICE AT LEAST THAT MAKES YOU GO?

LET'S CONSIDER IT MORE SERIOUSLY THAN JUST A GROUP OF THINK TANKERS COMING UP AND DOING A POWERPOINT PRESENTATION?

- YEAH, I THINK FIRST LET'S TALK ABOUT THE ISSUE.

I MEAN PROPERTY TAXES ARE INCREASING EXPONENTIALLY IN NORTH CAROLINA AND IT'S PART OF THE COST EQUATION THAT WE TALKED ABOUT WITH HEALTH CARE ENERGY INCOME TAXES COST OF GROCERIES COST OF PHARMACEUTICAL MEDICATIONS.

I MEAN IT'S IT IS DRIVING OUR SENIOR CITIZENS, OUR VETERANS, OUR PEOPLE ON FIXED INCOMES, OUR LOWER MIDDLE INCOME FAMILIES.

IT'S MAKING THE AMERICAN DREAM HARDER.

AND I THINK THAT YOU SEE A RECOGNITION FROM THE SENATE AND HOUSE THAT WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING TO MAKE THIS PROBLEM MORE PALATABLE.

UM, ONE THING THAT I THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT IS TRANSPARENCY WITH HOW MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENTS AND COUNTY GOVERNMENTS HANDLE THE PROPERTY TAX ISSUE.

SO YOU SEE THIS THIS CIRCUMSTANCE WHERE THEY RE-EVALUATE THE PROPERTY AND IT GOES UP AND THEY CUT THE RATE AND AND AND ADVERTISE IT WENT DOWN, BUT IT DOESN'T.

IT'S ACTUALLY AN EFFECTIVE TAX INCREASE.

I'M USE THE TOWN OF SELMA AS AN EXAMPLE TOWN OF SELMA AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD INCOME UNDER $40,000 ONE OF THE POOREST COMMUNITIES IN JOHNSTON COUNTY RE-EVALUATION SENT PROPERTY VALUES UP.

THE TOWN OF SELMA DID NOT TOUCH THE TAX RATE.

IT WAS AN EFFECTIVE 70% TAX INCREASE ON THESE FAMILIES THAT ARE ALREADY HAVING A DIFFICULT TIME WITH INFLATION AND OTHER INCREASED COSTS ACROSS NORTH CAROLINA.

WE'VE GOT TO DO SOMETHING, YOU KNOW AS SKYE JUST ALLUDED TO EARLIER YOU KNOW, ULTIMATELY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY CAN HELP OR CAN MAKE THESE DECISIONS FOR YOU KNOW, CITIES AND MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENTS AND COUNTIES.

IT'S CLEAR AS BEING ABUSED AND IT'S TIME FOR US TO ACT AND MAKE THESE DECISIONS.

- REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD IF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS CANNOT BE TRANSPARENT WITH THEIR TAX INCREASES TO THE POINT THAT RAISES REVENUE AS A TAX INCREASE, SHOULD RALEIGH STEP IN AND HELP THEM BE MORE ENLIGHTENED WITH TAX POLICY?

- WELL, YOU KNOW LOOK I THINK I KNOW I DON'T THINK OUR COUNTY ELECTED LEADERS ARE ELECTED EVERY SINGLE ELECTION.

SO IF THEY'RE NOT DOING SOMETHING RIGHT, THE PEOPLE HOLD THE POWER TO UNELECT THOSE FOLKS AND PUT DIFFERENT FOLKS IN THERE.

WE WE ABSOLUTELY AGREE.

WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT THINGS ARE AFFORDABLE FOR OUR CITIZENS ACROSS THE STATE.

THERE ARE A LOT OF WAYS TO DO THAT.

PROPERTY TAXES LOOKING AT THAT IS CERTAINLY ONE.

WE HAVE TO LOOK AT A WHOLE LOT OF DIFFERENT WAYS TO HELP FOLKS ACHIEVE THE AMERICAN DREAM.

- AND SKYE, THOUGH, TOWNS LIKE SELMA, SMITHFIELD IN JOHNSTON COUNTY PARTS OF WAKE COUNTY.

THEY'RE GROWING.

THEY'RE BOOMING.

WE LIKE OUR NEW FIRE TRUCKS WE LIKE OUR NEW FIRE DEPARTMENTS AND SUCH AND SO FORTH.

ANY OPTION OUT THERE TO REPLACE WHAT WE HAVE?

I KNOW WE DON'T LIKE THE PROPERTY TAX VALUES AND ALL THAT GOING UP BUT WHAT'S BETTER?

- I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S BETTER.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE THIS COMMITTEE BOTH IN THE HOUSE AND NOW A QUASI COMMITTEE IN THE SENATE?

STUDY GROUP?

STUDY GROUP IN THE SENATE TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT ALL OF THOSE OPTIONS ARE AND LIKE LAY THE OPTIONS ON THE TABLE SO THAT LEGISLATORS CAN REALLY GET TOGETHER AND SAY LIKE WHAT IS BEST FOR ALL OF THESE COMMUNITIES ACROSS, NORTH CAROLINA?

- ARE THEY GOING TO GET TOGETHER IN RALEIGH THE HOUSE AND SEND IT EVENTUALLY.

BECAUSE I KNOW THE ONES A STUDY GROUP WITH ALL REPUBLICANS ONE IS AT LEAST BIPARTISAN IN SOME CONSTITUTION.

- YEAH I MEAN THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION HERE IS THE STATE WHERE WE'VE STRUGGLED TO PASS A BUDGET AND COME TO AGREEMENT OVER INCOME TAXES CAN WE COME TO AN AGREEMENT OVER PROPERTY TAXES.

THERE'S CERTAINLY AN INTEREST I THINK IN BOTH CHAMBERS AND DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER IN THIS MENU OF OPTIONS AND WE'VE GOT THINGS LIKE CAPS ON HOW MUCH YOU CAN RAISE IT AND SOME TAX TRANSPARENCY PROPOSALS.

A LOT OF OPTIONS THAT THEY COULD CONSIDER COMING TO ONE SPECIFIC CONCLUSION THAT BOTH CHAMBERS AGREE ON, YOU KNOW, WE'LL SEE.

- FROM THE DEMOCRAT REPUBLICAN PERSPECTIVE ARE LOCAL VOTERS ARE THEY TELLING YOU THAT THEY THINK THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH PROPERTY TAXATION?

OR IN THE WAY THE PROCESS HAS GONE THIS LAST REVALUATION?

BIPARTISAN?

- WHAT WHAT I AM HEARING MOST FROM PROPERTY OWNERS IS JUST HOW MUCH THEIR PROPERTY TAXES HAVE INCREASED, AND THAT IS NOT THEIR INCOME IS NOT KEEPING UP WITH THAT.

AND OF COURSE AS YOU'VE HEARD AND AS WE KNOW THE COST OF ALL KINDS OF GOODS ARE GOING UP.

AND SO IT'S JUST GETTING HARDER AND HARDER FOR PEOPLE TO PAY THAT.

- I'LL SAY YES I MEAN, I'M HEARING ABOUT IT DAILY MULTIPLE TIMES PER DAY.

AND THE CHALLENGE IS IS THAT IT'S NOT NECESSARILY LIKE INCOME WHERE YOU CAN PICK UP AND TAKE A NEW JOB AND GENERATE MORE INCOME OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

I MEAN YOUR HOUSE AND YOUR FARM OR YOUR BUILDING IS YOUR SINGLE LARGEST INVESTMENT.

YOU CAN'T REALLY DO SOMETHING TO ESCAPE ITS LOCATION.

YOU CAN'T ESCAPE WHAT THE RATE IS IS BEING LEVIED BY THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF SELLING AND MAKING A DRASTIC LIFESTYLE CHANGE.

SO YES, PEOPLE ARE FEELING IT.

PEOPLE FEEL TRAPPED.

AND PEOPLE ARE CRYING OUT FOR US TO DO SOMETHING IN RALEIGH.

- JOHNSTON COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS, REPUBLICAN?

- IT'S REPUBLICAN AND THEY DID THE VALUATION WENT UP AND THEY CUT THE RATE DOWN.

BUT SOME OF OUR LOCAL MUNICIPALITIES YOU KNOW SELMA WAS IS PROBABLY THE THE BIG BIGGEST EXAMPLE.

I MEAN THAT THEY ARE THE ONES THAT DID NOT DO ANYTHING TO CUT THE RATES.

AND THAT'S A PROBLEM, ESPECIALLY ON LOW-INCOME AND MIDDLE-INCOME FAMILIES OR PEOPLE ON FIXED INCOMES.

- WELL, IF YOU'RE NOT BEING TAXED TO DEATH FOLKS, HOW ABOUT ELECTRICITY BILLS?

NORTH CAROLINA'S ENERGY TASK FORCE SAYS ELECTRICITY DEMAND WILL SPIKE SOON AND IT SEEMS POWER BILLS WILL INCREASE WITH THAT DEMAND.

SPIKE, SO SAYS THIS TASK FORCE DUKE ENERGY CAN SEE ELECTRICITY DEMAND RISE BY 60% BETWEEN NOW AND 2040, ALONG WITH THESE GROWING NUMBER OF DATA CENTERS.

THE STATE'S POWER DEMAND - I SAW THIS IN A REPORT - ONLY ROSE 7% FOR 20 YEARS BETWEEN 2005 AND '25.

SO 60% IN THE NEXT 15 YEARS OR SO HUGE.

POWER BILLS UP 30% SINCE 2017.

REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD I'VE OFTEN WONDERED, ARE BILLS REALLY HIGHER BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE JANUARY AND DECEMBER BILLS.

IT WAS ALSO VERY COLD.

BUT NOW IT'S BECOMING THIS BIG ISSUE THE POWER BILL.

IS IT LIKE THE DRONES IN NEW JERSEY LIKE WHERE IT JUST GOES AWAY ONE DAY BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER REALLY A THING MAYBE OR WHAT WHAT'S THE DEAL?

- I DON'T THINK THAT THE COMPLAINTS ABOUT THE POWER BILL INCREASES ARE GOING AWAY LIKE THE DRONES.

THE PEOPLE ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THEIR POWER BILLS.

WE HAVE DATA ON IT WE ARE HEARING FROM CONSTITUENTS ON IT.

I DO GET TO SERVE ON THE ENERGY COMMITTEE AND SO WE HAVE A LOT OF THESE CONVERSATIONS IN COMMITTEE ABOUT POWER INCREASES, AND WE TALKED TO DUKE AND THE OTHER UTILITY PLAYERS ABOUT THAT.

BUT YEAH, I THINK YOU KNOW GROWTH IS HAPPENING, NORTH CAROLINA.

THE DEMAND IS GOING UP.

WE'VE GOT TO FIGURE OUT THE INFRASTRUCTURE.

WE HAVE 350 PEOPLE MOVING INTO THE STATE EVERY SINGLE DAY.

DATA CENTERS ARE TAKING UP ABOUT 80% OF THE POWER DEMAND.

WHICH IS KIND OF CRAZY TO THINK ABOUT, BUT NOT SURPRISING GIVING EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING ON.

AND OF COURSE ALL THE ADVANCED MANUFACTURING THAT'S MOVING IN HERE.

SO GROWTH HAS YOU KNOW, IT HAS CONSEQUENCES AND THE CONSEQUENCES ARE WE'VE GOT TO FIGURE OUT A SYSTEM THAT WORKS FOR EVERYBODY WITHOUT JUST AUTOMATICALLY PASSING THAT COST OF BUILDING THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO THE CONSUMER.

IF THE LARGE-SCALE PLAYERS ARE USING MORE OF THE POWER THEY SHOULD PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ASKING.

IT'S NOT ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THESE PRICES ARE GOING UP.

IT'S ABOUT HOW WE'RE GOING TO DISTRIBUTE THE COST FAIRLY.

- COLIN YOU TRAVEL ALL THESE SMALL TOWNS WE'VE GOT A STATE LINE SPECIAL ON DATA CENTERS.

IN SOME TOWNS DATA CENTERS WITH ALL THE JUICE THEY CONSUME AND ALL THE WATER THEY CONSUME, THEY'RE VIEWED AS VERY POSITIVE.

AND IN SOME TOWNS, THEY'RE BEATING THEM BACK SAYING WE DON'T WANT THEM.

IS THIS A SIMPLE ISSUE OF POWER BILLS OR IS IT OR ARE WE GOING TO BALANCE BEING RESIDENTIAL RATEPAYERS AGAINST A DATA CENTER COMING IN WHO, WE GET TO FUND THEIR ENERGY NEEDS.

- I THINK THAT'S THE CHALLENGE THAT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST RECOMMENDATIONS OUT OF THIS TASK FORCE WAS LIKE, HOW DO WE ACCOUNT FOR THESE DATA CENTERS WITHOUT OTHER PEOPLE SUBSIDIZING THE COST.

THAT THEY NEED TO PAY PRETTY MUCH A HUNDRED PERCENT OF THE COST OF THIS INITIAL DEMAND THAT'S OUT THERE BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS TO HAVE THAT IMPACT.

DATA CENTERS CAN BE POPULAR IN SOME PLACES BECAUSE BACK TO THE PROPERTY TAX POINT.

THEY PAY A LOT OF PROPERTY TAXES.

SO SOME COUNTIES HAVE SEEN OH LOOK NOW THERE.

HERE'S ALL THIS MONEY TO BUILD NEW SCHOOLS WITHOUT INCREASING TAXES ON ACTUAL HOMEOWNERS.

SO THERE'S BENEFITS, BUT THERE'S ALSO THE WORRY THAT THIS IS GONNA SUCK UP A LOT OF OUR POWER.

AND THAT MEANS YOU HAVE TO BUILD A NEW POWER PLANT WHERE DO YOU BUILD A NEW POWER PLANT AND WHO PAYS FOR IT?

- SKYE I HAVE TO SAY WE'VE HAD INFLATION SINCE 2017 AND QUITE A BIT OF IT.

SO WHY WOULD DUKE TAKE A BEATING OVER HAVING RATES HIGHER 30% HIGHER TODAY THAN BEFORE A VERY INFLATIONARY PERIOD OF THE U.S.

ECONOMIC HISTORY?

- WELL, IT'S SOMETHING YOU SEE EVERY MONTH AND FOR MY PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE, YOU SEE YOUR PHONE BILL, YOU SEE YOUR ENERGY BILL, YOU SEE ALL OF THESE BILLS.

AND IT SEEMS LIKE YOUR ENERGY BILL IS GOING UP A LOT MORE A LOT FASTER THAN THOSE OTHER BILLS, THAT YOU SEE EVERY MONTH.

SO IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S AT THE FRONT OF YOUR MIND.

AND WHEN IT GOES UP FROM 150 TO 260 THAT'S QUITE A JUMP FOR THE AVERAGE CONSUMER.

- THAT'S NOT 30% IS IT?

THAT'S A LOT.

SENATOR SAWREY, HOW DO WE HOW DO WE GET INTO THE MARKETPLACE HERE?

SOMETIMES WHEN YOU REGULATE THINGS GET MORE EXPENSIVE.

SOMETIMES WHEN YOU DEREGULATE THE SAME THING HAPPENS.

- YEAH, I THINK WE NEED TO LET THE MARKET TAKE CARE OF ITSELF TO AN EXTENT.

I MEAN NOT TO AN EXTENT, BUT I THINK WE NEED TO LET THAT BE A GUIDING PRINCIPLE ON THIS.

WE'VE DONE A GOOD JOB WITH PURSUING LEAST COST ALTERNATIVES RELIABLE DISPATCHABLE SOURCES.

WE NEED TO AVOID SOME OF THESE EXPLORATORY GREEN ENERGY IDEAS, LIKE OFFSHORE WIND ENERGY, WHICH ARE EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE.

AND NOT RIGHT FROM NORTH CAROLINA AND HURRICANE ALLEY.

I THINK WE YOU KNOW TO YOUR POINT ABOUT THE INFLATIONARY CALLS, BEFORE I CAME ON THE SHOW, I ACTUALLY LOOKED.

INFLATION BETWEEN 2017 AND TODAY IS ABOUT 32% SO THE COST OF ENERGY INCREASING 30% I MEAN THAT IS IN LINE WITH INFLATION.

AND ALSO LOOKED AT THE ENERGY INFORMATION ADMINISTRATION'S DATA FOR THE SOUTH ATLANTIC.

THERE ARE NINE STATES IN THAT REGION, NORTH CAROLINA IS STATE NUMBER EIGHT.

THERE'S ONLY ONE STATE THAT'S CHEAPER THAN US WHEN IT COMES TO RESIDENTIAL POWER.

SO YES, IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE.

WE FEEL IT.

IT'S PAINFUL WE NEED TO CONTINUE DOING A GOOD JOB BALANCING THAT WITH THE COST EQUATION.

YOU GO WITH HEALTH CARE, TAXES, COST OF LIVING.

AT THE SAME TIME I THINK WE ALL SEEM TO RECOGNIZE THAT WE HAVE MADE SOME MAJOR EFFORTS IN RALEIGH TO MAKE SURE THAT DUKE AND OUR OTHER UTILITIES PURSUE THE LEAST COST SOURCES, RATHER THAN EXPENSIVE ALTERNATIVE ENERGY.

- BUT JUST A COUPLE OF THINGS ONE WE'VE GIVEN DUKE BASICALLY THE SAME ABILITY AS THE UTILITY COMMISSION.

YOU PUT THE FOX IN THE HEN HOUSE AND I THINK WE'VE GOT TO REALLY TAKE A LOOK AT THAT.

AND WHAT WE DID THAT WAS I THINK IT WAS 951 A FEW YEARS AGO.

SO I THINK WE HAVE TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THAT AND SEE HOW THAT IS ACTUALLY BEING REGULATED.

AND I WANTED US TO BE REALLY CAREFUL ABOUT BLAMING CLEAN ENERGY, AND I DON'T THINK SOME OF THESE THINGS ARE EXPLORATORY.

WE ACTUALLY HAVE A LOT OF GOOD SUCCESS IN NORTH CAROLINA WITH SOLAR FOR EXAMPLE.

BUT EVEN IF EVEN IF WE USE FOSSIL FUELS TO FOR ALL OF THIS ENERGY, WE'RE STILL GOING TO HAVE DEMAND ON THE SYSTEM.

WE'RE STILL NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE EVERYTHING, SO WE'VE GOT TO LOOK AT ALL OF OUR OPTIONS.

- ISN'T THERE ONLY ONE WAY THAT, IF YOU BUILD A DATA CENTER THAT COULD CONSUME AS MUCH ELECTRICITY AS CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA.

AND ONE PLOT OF LAND ISN'T IT ONLY NUCLEAR THAT'S THE OPTION OR AM I MISSING SOMETHING?

YOU CAN'T DO IT SOLAR PANELS.

- WELL, NO, I DON'T I MEAN I THINK YOU HAVE I THINK YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE WHOLE ENERGY GRID HAS TO HAVE A BALANCED APPROACH TO WHERE WE'RE WHERE WE'RE SOURCING THAT ELECTRICITY.

AND SO IT'S NOT IT'S NOT JUST NUCLEAR.

IT'S NOT JUST FOSSIL FUELS IT'S NOT SO SOLAR.

IT'S GOT TO BE AN ALL-OF-THE-ABOVE APPROACH SENATOR, SHOULD RATEPAYERS, YOU KNOW, THE ORDINARY FAMILY OUT THERE SHOULD THEY BE WORRIED THAT POLICY WILL ALLOW ELECTRICITY COMPANIES TO FORCE BILLS UP ON RESIDENTS TO PAY FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT?

- I DON'T I DON'T THINK SO.

I DON'T THINK WE'VE SEEN A TRACK RECORD OF THAT HAPPENING IN NORTH CAROLINA.

YES AGAIN AND I MEAN ALL OF OUR RATES HAVE GONE UP.

AND IT IS IT IS IT'S PAINFUL TO EVERY PERSON THAT'S A RATE PAYER IN NORTH CAROLINA.

AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DO WE CAN TO KEEP THOSE RATES DOWN IN RALEIGH AND NOT IMPOSE COSTLY REGULATIONS TO DO THINGS THAT AREN'T NECESSARILY THE BEST INTEREST OF THE RATEPAYERS.

- ALL RIGHT NEXT TOPIC PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP CAME TO FORT BRAGG LAST WEEK WHILE WE WERE RECORDING THE SHOW.

NOT SO MUCH PRAISING TROOPS FOR THE ARREST OF THE VENEZUELAN PRESIDENT NICOLAS MADURO.

HE ADDRESSED TENSIONS WITH IRAN A LOT'S HAPPENED IN THOSE DAYS, BUT IT'S THE PRESIDENT COMING TO FORT BRAGG.

THAT'S THE BIG DEAL.

HE INVITED REPUBLICAN US SENATE CANDIDATE MICHAEL WHATLEY UP ON THE STAGE, AND SAYING WE NEED TO KEEP THIS AREA SAFE.

WE CAN'T DO THAT WITHOUT THE LEADERS, YOUR EX-GOVERNOR IS NOT ONE OF THEM, THOSE LEADERS BECAUSE HE'S RAISING THE ISSUE OF IRYNA ZARUTSKA'S MURDER IN CHARLOTTE AT FORT BRAGG, COLIN.

AND NOW I SEE I SAW ON X OR TWITTER THAT THE, SOME MEETINGS OF THE G20 ARE GONNA BE HELD IN ASHEVILLE.

HERE COMES THE WHATLEY CAMPAIGN IT LOOKS LIKE.

- YEAH I MEAN THEY'RE SORT OF GETTING IN INVOLVED IN THIS AND THAT WAS A LITTLE BIT OF A DEPARTURE FROM WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE PAST FROM PRESIDENTS GOING TO MILITARY BASES.

USUALLY IT'S TO GO THERE THANK THE TROOPS FOR AN ACTION LIKE VENEZUELA AND KEEP IT MOSTLY APOLITICAL.

THIS WAS KIND OF MORE OF A CAMPAIGN RALLY TO THE POINT THAT YOU SAW MICHAEL WHATLEY THERE.

WHO'S NOT AN ELECTED OFFICIAL, HE'S A FORMER CHAIRMAN OF THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE WHO'S RUNNING FOR US SENATE.

AND TRUMP'S MESSAGE WAS VERY MUCH TO THE TROOPS THAT ARE BASED IN NORTH CAROLINA.

HEY VOTE FOR THIS GUY.

SO IT'S DEFINITELY USING THE THE BACKGROUND OF A MILITARY INSTALLATION TO KIND OF HOLD MORE OF A CAMPAIGN STYLE EVENT, IN ADDITION TO THANKING THE TROOPS FOR THEIR WORK.

- SKYE WITH MICHAEL WHATLEY NOW STARTING TO TRY TO BUILD HIS NAME RECOGNITION WE KNOW THAT'S A POLLING ISSUE WITH DONALD TRUMP NOW AT FORT BRAGG GOOD CALL FOR THE WEEK?

AND THEN AS WE HEAD INTO THE G20, MAYBE IT WAS IT LATER THIS SUMMER IN ASHEVILLE PUTS HELENE BACK IN THE SPOTLIGHT.

THIS SENATE RACE IS GONNA BE HOT - YEAH, IT'S GONNA BE AND WHATLEY NEEDS THE NAME RECOGNITION.

SO HE NEEDS TO SHOW UP PLACES WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP BECAUSE I THINK JUST THE AVERAGE VOTER DOESN'T REALLY KNOW WHO HE IS.

US ON THE INSIDE MIGHT KNOW.

OH, HE WAS HE LED THE GOP.

BUT THE AVERAGE REPUBLICAN VOTER HAS NO IDEA WHO HE IS AND SO HE'S GOT TO BE GETTING OUT THERE A LITTLE BIT MORE.

AND I THINK THE HELENE THING WILL DEFINITELY DRAW ATTENTION WHETHER IT'S GOOD OR BAD.

- WHAT DO YOU THINK OF GOING TO ASHEVILLE AND SETTING UP BECAUSE THERE'S TWO WAYS TO PITCH HELENE RECOVERY?

I WOULD SAY AT A LOCAL LEVEL UP HEARD THAT THE STATE HAS DONE A REALLY GOOD JOB WITH WHAT IT'S BEEN ABLE TO INVEST.

FEDERAL ISSUES THERE'S LAWSUITS JEFF JACKSON'S OUT THERE.

PARSE THAT PARTICULAR CHOICE THAT ASHEVILLE WILL BE FRONT AND CENTER HERE SOON.

- ASHEVILLE, I THINK I AGREE, YOU KNOW, THIS SHOULD BE FRONT AND CENTER.

I AGREE WHATLEY NEEDS THE NAME RECOGNITION.

I MEAN ALL OF THIS IS SO INTERESTING TO ME, AND REPUBLICANS ARE IN TROUBLE.

I MEAN REPUBLICANS ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE IN TROUBLE.

WE'RE SEEING THAT LEFT AND RIGHT.

SO I'M NOT SURPRISED THAT YOU KNOW THAT THE TRUMP THAT THE PRESIDENT TRUMP AND MICHAEL WHATLEY ARE TRYING TO PULL OUT ALL THE STOPS AND MAKE ALL OF THIS HAPPEN.

- THERE WAS ALL THE STOPS IN THERE.

- YEAH, LOOK MICHAEL WHATLEY'S IN A GREAT SPOT, YOU KNOW, HE HAS A CANVAS HE CAN TELL HIS STORY.

HE CAN HE CAN INTRODUCE HIMSELF TO THE VOTERS.

YOU KNOW GOVERNOR COOPER HAS NEARLY 100% NAME ID IN THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA AND HE CAN BARELY CRACK 47% IN THE POLLS.

THIS IS GONNA BE A BILLION DOLLAR RACE WHERE WHATLEY AND THE REPUBLICANS GOT A CHANCE TO REALLY DEFINE HIS RECORD.

TELL THE VOTERS THINGS THEY MIGHT NOT BE AWARE OF.

I THINK THE REPUBLICANS IN NORTH CAROLINA WITH THE US SENATE RACE ARE IN BETTER POSITION THAN PEOPLE ARE GIVING CREDIT FOR.

- WE'RE GONNA SEE BARACK OBAMA NOW COME TO ADD THAT PRESIDENTIAL... - WE GOT A LONG WAY TILL NOVEMBER WE'RE GONNA SEE A LOT OF CELEBRITY VISITS A LOT OF REALLY WELL-KNOWN POLITICIANS COMING TO TOWN ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.

- I GOT A COUPLE MINUTES LEFT NATIONAL DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS SAY THEY'VE REACHED A DEAL TO PRESERVE 73,000 VOTER REGISTRATIONS THAT HAVE FACED REMOVALS FOR IRREGULARITIES.

THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE SAYS IT WILL DROP ITS FEDERAL LAWSUIT AGAINST THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS TO REMOVE THOSE VOTERS, AS LONG AS STATE OFFICIALS CONTINUE THEIR EFFORTS TO CORRECT INCOMPLETE VOTER REGISTRATIONS, WHICH THE BOARD IS APPARENTLY DOING.

SOME VOTER REGISTRATIONS WERE MISSING INFORMATION LIKE PARTIAL SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS OR DRIVERS LICENSE NUMBERS.

VERY QUICKLY SKYE, THAT'S STARTING TO CLEAR UP THIS IDEA.

THAT'S CONFUSION AROUND OUR ELECTIONS.

- YEAH I TOOK A LOOK AT THIS SETTLEMENT DOCUMENT AND IT LOOKS LIKE BECAUSE THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS LAST YEAR WHEN IT WAS TAKEN OVER BY REPUBLICANS BEGAN THE STEPS TO CORRECT THIS.

THEY SENT THINGS OUT TO VOTERS SAID THESE ARE THE WAYS THAT YOU CAN CORRECT.

THEY'RE ON A PATH TO GETTING PEOPLE BACK ON THE ROLLS WITHOUT BLANKET REMOVING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE OFF THE ROLLS.

- IS THIS A PARTISAN MOVE, REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD, OR JUST GOOD GOVERNANCE WHERE YOU ARE CLEANING UP VOTER ROLLS?

MAKING SURE EVERY REGISTRATION IS CORRECT.

- I MEAN, I THINK FIRST OF ALL, THIS IS A WIN.

THIS IS A WIN FOR DEMOCRACY.

ELECTION INTEGRITY IS NOT ABOUT KICKING PEOPLE ELIGIBLE LEGAL VOTERS LEGALLY REGISTERED OFF THE ROLLS.

YOU KNOW, I DO THINK THAT THAT THIS IS GOOD WORK TO MAKE SURE THAT FORMS ARE CORRECTED INFORMATION IS VALIDATED.

WE CERTAINLY DON'T WANT ANYBODY WHO SHOULDN'T BE VOTING VOTING IN ELECTIONS.

THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS IS.

THIS IS FIXING YOU KNOW, HOWEVER OLD THESE FORMS ARE AND VOTERS SHOULD NOT BE PUNISHED JUST BECAUSE A FORM IS MISSING A FEW NUMBERS.

WE AND WE NEED TO CORRECT THAT AND WE'RE DOING BOTH - 20 SECONDS.

IT'S CLEANING UP THE ROLLS I MEAN IS THIS ISSUE GONNA START FADING OR WE'RE JUST GONNA REVAMP IT LATER?

- PEOPLE CONFIDENCE IN THEIR ELECTIONS AND THE FORMS OF REGISTRATION DOCUMENTS ARE INCOMPLETE OR INACCURATE I MEAN THE STATE BOARD'S DOING EXACTLY WHAT IT SHOULD BE DOING AND REACHING OUT TO VOTERS AND FIXING THIS.

I MEAN WE AGAIN WHEN PEOPLE HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THEIR ELECTIONS HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THE RESULTS AND THAT'S GOOD FOR NORTH CAROLINA IT'S GOOD FOR DEMOCRACY.

- COLIN, THE LAST 30 SECONDS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS ISSUE?

I MEAN, IS IT WHACK-A-MOLE SOMETHING ELSE WILL POP UP WHEN THEY GET THIS FIXED?

- I MEAN THERE MAY BE OTHER ISSUES THAT COME UP.

THIS IS SORT OF THE CONCLUSION OF THE WHOLE SUPREME COURT RACE SAGA THAT INVOLVED A LOT OF THESE VOTES.

NOW THEY SEEM TO BE BE CORRECTED.

BUT IT'S GREAT TO SEE THERE'LL BE A FEW PEOPLE WHO DON'T QUITE GET THE MEMO TO FIX THOSE FORMS.

- AND THAT'S OUR SHOW FOR THIS WEEK.

THANK YOU, SKYE.

THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

AND THANK YOU COLIN.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, THANK YOU FOR WATCHING STATE LINES EVERY WEEK.

WE CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK WE HAVE AN EMAIL ADDRESS STATELINES@PBSNC.ORG SEND ME YOUR THOUGHTS AND YOUR ANALYSIS.

I'LL READ EVERY EMAIL.

I'M KELLY MCCULLEN THANKS FOR WATCHING AND I'LL SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

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