- [Narrator] Coming up on a special future of Work Edition of One Detroit, we've assembled a host of experts to talk about higher education and its connection to growing Michigan's population.

We'll have a one-on-one conversation with Michigan's first ever chief growth officer, Hillary Doe, plus we'll look at what young Michiganders think about pursuing careers here in the state.

Also ahead, we'll examine some of the barriers to higher education and possible solutions, especially in communities of color.

It's all coming up next on an hour long One Detroit.

- [Narrator] Support for this program is provided by the Ralph C. Wilson Jr. Foundation Additional support provided by these sponsors.

(bright music) - [Narrator] From Delta Faucets to Bear Paint.

Masco Corporation is proud to deliver products that enhance the way consumers all over the world experience and enjoy their living spaces.

Masco serving Michigan communities since 1929.

Support for this program is provided by the Cynthia Essel & Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit Public TV.

- [Narrator] The DTE Foundation is a proud sponsor of Detroit Public TV.

Among the state's largest foundations committed to Michigan focused giving.

We support organizations that are doing exceptional work in our state.

Visit DTEFoundation.com to learn more.

- [Narrator] Nissan Foundation and Viewers Like You.

(bright music) Welcome to this special edition of One Detroit.

I'm Will Glover, a One Detroit producer and host for our future of work series.

Today's show is all about higher education and the battle for Gen Z talent.

Coming up over the next hour, we're going to hear from local leaders about retaining and growing Michigan's younger population, and the role of higher education in meeting this goal.

I'm here on the campus of Washington Community College in Ann Arbor, where students are enrolled in professional certificate or associate's degree programs.

I spoke with some students about whether their future plans include staying here in Michigan.

(bright music) (whooshing) (bright music) (whooshing) (bright music) Graham, once you're done with your degree program, certificate program, whatever it may be, are you planning on staying here in Michigan to pursue the rest of your career?

- More than likely, yeah.

All the big automation stuffs here, robotics, just general automation, it's all here.

- So when you're done with your certificate, with your degree, when you're finished with your program, are you planning on staying here in Michigan?

I'm planning on leaving, living in another state.

- So what's the reason that's taking you out of the state?

- Weather and just wanting to try something new.

I grew up in Michigan, I've been here my whole, whole life.

I love it, but I want to see more.

- So do you think you'll come back eventually or are you thinking that far ahead?

- I'm planning on coming back for sure.

- Are you planning on staying here in Michigan to pursue more of your career?

- So right now, the growth for computers... Well, I wanna go into IT, so I plan on going to Atlanta to, you know, pursue that career and I wanna work for Microsoft.

So they have a really good, I guess, franchise there in Atlanta.

- Is it the company that's drawing you to Atlanta or is it the city itself?

- It's the company.

I really wanna work for Microsoft, so.

- When you're done with your program, when you've gotten your degree, your certificate, what do you plan on doing?

Do you plan on staying here in Michigan to pursue the rest of your career?

- Absolutely, I'll be here probably the rest of my life.

I love Michigan.

- Why, is there anything in particular that's keeping you here?

- It's just beautiful, it's a nice state up north.

Great people, you know, every experience I've had here is great and I've been here my whole life.

- Are you planning on staying here in Michigan to pursue your career?

- So for right now, my plan is to transfer to AHBCU.

My plan is to transfer to Central State, which is in Ohio and to further my education to get a bachelor's so I can go into laboratory science.

- Are you planning on staying here in Michigan to continue the rest of your career?

- That would be my goal.

You know, I have family here, I have roots here, but WCC is really good about providing programs, career fairs and stuff for companies in Michigan.

So I think it's probably a good opportunity.

- Once you're finished with your degrees, are you going to plan on staying here in Michigan to continue your career?

- Actually, I'm an international student, so after my degree is done, I have to go back home.

- Would you like to stay here in Michigan?

- I would.

If I get a job offer then I'd probably get a Visa to stay for longer and yeah, Michigan is a nice place.

It's cheaper to live, so definitely look into it.

- Growing Michigan's population is a key priority for Governor Gretchen Whitmer.

Earlier this year at the Detroit Regional Chamber's Mackinac Policy Conference, the governor announced the creation of a bipartisan council to develop long-term strategies for reversing the state's population decline.

She also revealed the appointment of Michigan's first ever chief growth officer, Hillary Doe.

One Detroit contributor, Zoey Clark from Michigan Radio.

sat down with Hillary Doe at a recent One Detroit Future of Work Town Hall at Henry Ford College in Dearborn.

Here's a part of their conversation.

(bright music) (whooshing) (bright music) (whooshing) (bright music) - You are the first chief growth officer for the state of Michigan.

What does that mean Hillary Doe?

Good question.

- (laughing) Are you still figuring that out?

I think we figured it out, but yeah, I'm the first chief growth officer officer for the state, but also the first chief growth officer of any state in the country.

So even more rare, I guess, and the reason that matters is because Michigan's really the first state that's taking on this challenge of population growth, truly head on.

It's the kind of multifaceted complex challenge that you really need to think about in kind of an ecosystem approach comprehensively.

So I'm really proud that we were willing to be first in doing that.

So all to say the task is to grow Michigan's population.

- Right.

- And how we get that done is by wrapping arms around our community, retaining our folks, attracting new folks here, but also boosting our economy and telling our story, making sure everybody in Michigan and folks across the country and arguably around the world know Michigan is a great place to call home.

- Yeah, so I was born and raised here in this state and I was talking to someone actually when the first papers from CRC came out in the audience here, and we have talked a lot about this idea, that since I was born, every single year in school, it was always so easy when the question was "What's the population of Michigan?"

(Hilary laughing) Because it never changed.

It was 10 million.

And I'm curious with that dynamic, with governor after governor having these conversations, why is this moment and how is this time going to be different?

- Yeah well this moment's really unique.

I mean, partly, because of some of these first in the nation actions that we're taking, right?

It is really unique.

The governor also named The Growing Michigan Together Council at the same time that I was announced.

So a statewide effort, we have four work groups, maybe 90 people involved across the state, really digging in and thinking about from infrastructure to jobs to higher ed, to pre-K 12, what's all the work that we can do to improve the product that is Michigan and ensure we have a really strong value prop for our young folks here in the state and young folks across the country that are thinking of, you know, the place that they wanna call home.

So we're taking a really data German approach.

We're looking at what cities have done that have been really successful at this across the country, but we're also listening to Michiganders across the country.

We will have done more than 70 public engagement events between the end of August and the end of November here.

So we're in a real sprint doing a lot of listening.

You know, what growth looks like for the upper Peninsula or Grand Rapids or Detroit, they will all look really different.

Our folks' dreams about what they want their communities to look like are really different, and we need to pay attention to that, so we can build nuanced growth strategies to drive us forward, and so that we have a strong value prop to make, again, to young folks who are thinking about where they wanna land long term and build their families, and Michigan will be at the top of that list.

- Well let's funnel in then on one of those pillars as we're talking about education here at Henry Ford.

What are you hearing about the needs of folks?

- Yeah, so in particular, as some of you know to like layer us in stats.

First of all, thank you to CRC for their intellectual leadership on some of this.

- Eric Lufer is here, we need to say thank you.

- Yes, yes, thank you.

You know, to give us just some general sense, if we did nothing, Michigan would grow at about 1/3 of the national growth rate, and that means that we'll have a challenge, right?

We'll see communities who are struggling to maintain their quality of life and investment in their public services.

Some of our rural communities have been a canary in the coal mine for this and have been really vocal about it.

But we'll also miss a chance potentially to take advantage of some of the big opportunities that Michigan has, that we're at the precipice of, that we have a right to be at the vanguard of I would argue.

When I think about our state, we're so strategically positioned, with our natural resources, our world's longest freshwater coastline.

I always try to get that one in, but also our people, our history, our manufacturing might, we're so well positioned to lead the country in the green transformation to push forward on advanced manufacturings, novel technology, and we just can't rise to that occasion, right?

Without a workforce that's ready to go.

Yeah, so, I can dig in to what I'm saying, but I wanted to start there.

- This is the thing, I love it, you are such a cheerleader for the signature.

Should we show everybody here?

- Oh sure, it's become infamous.

It's both peninsulas, very important, my tattoo.

But also when I was living in New York, it was so funny because I'm a boomerang.

I grew up down river, a product of generations of Michiganders who were living the Michigan dream and then I left the state for 10 years.

Most of that time was in Brooklyn.

And I got the tattoo when I was living in Brooklyn and people would see it, the number of New Yorkers who asked me if it was a shark was truly jarring.

(audience laughing) I worried about the state of our education and geography.

But now that I'm back, everyone knows we're in Michigan.

- So you are trumpeting the story of the state, but one of the things that we are talking about is the need to have other folks do that, right?

And you know, we can do that, but what we need when we're talking about the next generation, how do we get those folks to sort of cheerlead staying here?

Because one of the conversations that we're also having is like, maybe you come and you get that four year degree and then like yourself, you leave.

How do we get people to stay?

How do we get them back?

And how can education and higher ed play a role in that?

- Yeah so I think it's really critical.

The reason we started with listening and the reason that this job is so exciting from my perspective, I feel so honored to get the chance, is because you can't just do the marketing side.

We can't just tell a different story and tell folks just to tell their story, though that's critical, you should brag about Michigan if you love Michigan, 'cause I know many of you do.

But we also have to back it up by really listening to folks when they think about where they wanna call home, what's in the way when they imagine their future, between today and Michigan being the place that they wanna be long term, where they see the biggest opportunity for them and do the work to make sure that we are being responsive to that, right?

So the growing Michigan together council is a great first step.

You know, I'm coming most recently from running a tech company, from a startup.

So I've been joking, Hey, this is product improvement, right?

We're listening and we're doing the structural policy reform work to ensure that we're making our higher ed system even better and deliver better outcomes, our pre-K 12 system even better.

What I'm hearing when we're traveling the state from young folks is that they care about access to 21st century opportunity.

They need to be able to see a pathway, to, you know, having real opportunity here in our state.

Place making is critical.

So they want places and communities they can be in that are walkable, that include transit, that have housing opportunity.

We can get that done here.

And the third thing is that, you know, more and more, especially when we're talking about Gen Z, folks want purpose in their life.

They want purpose with their family members.

They wanna be leaning into doing work that has purpose that they see the purpose in, and we are makers and innovators in this state, we always have been, and we're at the precipice of helping solve yet another challenge, right?

And leading us forward in this green transformation.

That's a case we can make to the whole country.

We can say to young folks across the country, "Hey, you wanna decarbonize the world, we're gonna do that here in Michigan."

- I could talk to you for like hours about this.

We only have a couple more seconds, so as we wrap, what I'm really curious from you is like, what is success going to look like?

- Yeah, I'd say the first step in success is having everybody at the table.

Truly, you can't get this done with one program.

We can't be fickle, we can't lean into it for six months and then move on.

We need the state and folks across our state from diverse regions and diverse backgrounds, diverse lived experiences to say, "Hey, yeah, let's lean in and get this done together."

It is a group project.

So if I can plug one thing, we do have QR codes out in the lobby.

And for anyone who's watching at growingmichigan.org, you can let us know your ideas, the challenges that are in the way, 'cause we're really listening.

I think that's the first step.

And then the sort of nerdier answer is that we're tracking, the first step will be seeing our net migration go positive.

In order to grow the population you need to win the net migration battle.

We need more folks joining us than we see leave.

And we currently are an outward migrator domestically.

So of the folks leaving the state for job related reasons, we're seeing about 40 to 45% of those folks be 18 to 34 year olds who are, you know, seeking an opportunity elsewhere.

We need to turn that around, we're focused on it, and I believe with this kind of first in the nation, you know, approach, we're gonna get it done.

- Yeah.

- [Narrator] So what role do community colleges and universities play in the future of work in Michigan?

What conversations need to happen between them?

Our town hall addressed these questions during a conversation between One Detroit contributor, and Detroit News editorial page editor Nolan Finley, and two post-secondary leaders, Russ Caval Luna, president of Henry Ford College, and Kimberly Andrews Espy, Wayne State University's new president.

(bright music) (whooshing) (bright music) (whooshing) (bright music) - We had Lou Glacier from Michigan Futures in our office the other day talking about the importance of college, college education to the prosperity of the state.

And, you know, some of the statistics he laid out were.

you know, pretty intriguing.

I mean, 1/2 of the jobs in Michigan today, 56% according to his report, are considered low paying jobs, and of the rest of the jobs, the good paying jobs, 80% of them are occupied by people with college degrees.

And so I guess looking at Michigan, looking at the college environment here and career environment, is the issue that Michigan has too few jobs for talented high skilled people to fill, or does it have too few talented and high skilled people to attract the jobs the state needs?

- So the question you asked, I've heard you say Nolan is a chicken or an egg question, you know, and I would acknowledge that that's the case.

What is not a chicken or an egg question is what is happening in parts of the country, whether it be states or regions that have growing population, and it is that their median income for their citizens is higher and it is directly correlated to the number of citizens as a percentage that have a post-secondary credential.

- Indeed.

- So a post-secondary credential could be a welding certificate, could be an associate degree or a bachelor's degree is the gold standard.

But the higher percentage of that will drive both good jobs and good communities, and we don't have enough of those in Michigan, which is why there's rare political consensus around the idea that we need to increase the number of people in Michigan who have a post-secondary credential.

And I will tell you what is clear, that when you do have that, employers will flood to that region and they will drive up median income, they will drive up safety metrics for society, they'll drive even more employers and it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

And so, while I can't answer the question of what and why business does what it does, what I can say is that we in higher education recognize we have to get more people with post-secondary credentials who want to be in Michigan to learn and then be in Michigan to earn.

- Dr. Espy, jobs draw talent or talent draws jobs.

- He didn't like my answer, see.

(audience laughing) - Wanna give our guest... - I will say, so, you know, oftentimes people like to frame things as a this versus that and when in actuality it's a both, it's an and, right?

So when I think of as the president, the new president of Wayne State University, what I'm worried about is that we're actually leaving talent on the table, that students who are qualified to come to Henry Ford or to Wayne are choosing not to.

And yet they're limiting then their potential, perhaps not in job one, but in career, right?

Because oftentimes someone will start at a job that may be very well suited for a certificate, but yet they may not wanna be in that job when they finish their career.

So how do we make sure that they're prepared for that entire career, not just the beginning.

So for example, at Wayne, we've worked really hard to collaborate intentionally with Henry Ford.

We're a different kind of public research university.

We recognize that there are multiple pathways to that outcome.

So for example, this year we welcomed almost our very largest class of 3000 new incoming students, but we also welcome 1500 transfer students, many whom come from Henry Ford and our other colleagues across the Detroit metro area.

That's really important.

Many of them are traditional aged, but not all of them are right?

That they're coming back to up-skill or to re-skill because they're looking for that next opportunity.

And we need to be providing those pathways, you know, I am new to Michigan and when I told my mom, for example, I was coming here, my mom's obviously a generation older than me, she was quite surprised.

And yet when I told my assistant in Texas, she's about 30 years old, she's like, "Detroit?

Detroit is awesome.

It's a place where a lot of things are happening.

It's a vibrant environment where you can live, you can work."

Those are the stories we need to be getting out, because folks like my assistant, she wants to come just for this job, but she also wants to come, because there are other opportunities in the future, right?

That if this job doesn't work out, she can go work somewhere else.

And so I do think there's opportunities through us collaborating and making sure multiple pathways for people to pursue their dreams are available.

We're a university of opportunity.

We've always been that, we're based in Detroit, we're for Detroit, we're with Detroit, we're in Detroit, and the metro, of course, those are all one in my mind.

I know everyone parses those to different things.

(audience laughing) But you know, that's the kind of attitude where we all link arms together and make a difference across the education sector and with our industry partners, large and small.

Nonprofits are employers too.

So is the government, you know, how do we work together to make that happen?

- So 20 years ago, Mary Sue Coleman, who was then president of University of Michigan, came into our offices and just declared that Michigan doesn't have a culture of education.

And we were all taken back by that and didn't really believe it, because, you know, we got great universities here and we're not a backwater, but she said there's not a culture here that values education, particularly higher education.

And so we went out and did a survey.

We teamed with the Michigan Education Association and came back and that poll found that 27% of the parents in Michigan didn't believe a college education was essential to their child's success.

Lou Glacier, again in his poll, asked the same question.

And after 20 years, two decades of people in this state touting higher education, touting the necessity for skills and the connection between education and prosperity, only 25% came back and said, "A college education is essential to our child."

How does a state overcome that?

And how does the state build that culture of education?

- Madam president?

(audience and Dr. Espy laughing) - Okay, so one thing I would say, you know, again, is that, you know, when you think about the skills necessary for life, right?

There are certainly opportunities and examples of folks who have done incredibly well without a college degree, that doesn't negate the impact that higher education has not only on earnings potential, but also on other key important outcomes.

We forget that college education is related to higher civic participation, to voting, to better family outcomes, better health and wellbeing, right?

So it contributes to the broader social good, and that's part of the reason that there's public investment around higher education.

I would agree with you that some of the narrative that has been called into question lately undercuts some of that impact.

And you know, certainly individual stories in some ways as a systemic investment, don't in any way undercut that.

And I think sometimes we need to entertain and hold those two things in our mind.

Yes, individuals can be successful without a college education.

But yes, we need to be investing and making those pathways more deliberate, more predictable and easier for students to navigate, 'cause for us, for example, half of our students are Pell eligible.

They come from under-resourced families, 40% come from transfer.

And you know what?

When there's any little thing that's not clear or predictable, when they're not sure they can start at Henry Ford and finish at Wayne, they think college isn't for me, and that couldn't be further from the truth.

We have a very innovative agreement between us and Henry Ford that we say, okay, you get your 60 credits, you come to Wayne no questions asked.

You graduate with a good GPA, you're coming to Wayne.

It's that kind of predictability that allows individuals to take that first step, then take that second step and enables a whole different kind of future and opportunity.

- How big an issue in terms of attainability and accessibility is the cost of a college education and what are you all doing about it?

- Yeah, that's a great question, because the previous question was when President Coleman came to you and brought her question to you, why is it less people today think that the investment in oneself through college is necessary or worth it?

And this is a misconception.

The price of going to college, particularly the 28 publicly funded community colleges in Michigan, is utterly acceptable.

We have almost entirely eliminated the cost barrier, at least for tuition and fees, through all kinds of government action, which I know you've reported on, but it's free tuition for those 25 and older and now has moved down to 21.

Last year, the legislature passed an extraordinary influx of money to everyone who is at least in the middle income bracket or below as a Michigan Achievement Scholarship.

So the cost of attending college is low and we have to do a better job of explaining that to folks like you who might say, "Look, can you have a full-time job and still go to community college or even a university?"

And the answer is yes.

The majority of my students at this institution do that.

But you're right, we don't yet have a really compelling story to say why you should get a college certificate or degree and stay in Michigan and the data bear that out.

We have more people coming into Michigan to get a four year degree or a higher education certificate than those going out.

We migrate in, but when they graduate, we migrate out and it's a big delta.

It's over 5,000 people who graduate with a four year degree that leave versus that come in.

And here's one of the things that we have to do in higher education that the chief growth officer, which I call CGO Doe.

(audience and Dr. Espy laughing) Officer Doe and that the president just mentioned, we have to build a better pathway.

And the work group that some of us are working on under the Grow Michigan Talent Council have decided we're gonna recommend that a talent pathway ends with a job.

And so the students that President Espy just mentioned, that kind of struggle with how does higher ed get to a better place?

Nolan to get 24 or 5% of parents saying it's worth it, to get us to 30 and 40, and like my parents just said, "You have to go to college, it's a better way."

Is to have employers say to those students, if you go to a Henry Ford College, you won't have to ask for permission to transfer to Wayne 'cause they'll accept you with a grade point average that's sufficient.

You won't have to wonder whether you'll lose the credits that you paid a lower price for at Henry Ford College.

You'll get absolute support from a new president at Wayne State University to get to a bachelor's degree.

And then by the way, we have this panoply of employers who will guarantee you a job.

That is what institutions and regions do to pull students through.

We're not there yet, but when we do get there, my belief is that that number that you've pulled now twice will start to grow, because that's what we've seen in Michigan in the past, when families saw a guarantee or close to a guarantee outcome in anything, whether it be the factory floor or a community college, they'll respond.

And we have to do improvement in higher ed at that point right now.

- So you mentioned employers, how well connected are you with the employment needs of this region and in the state?

How much time do you spend talking to the business about their needs and what you could do to better, you know, train people for the folks they'll be hiring or jobs they'll be hiring to fill?

- From my perspective, this is an area of opportunity for us.

And part of the reason I came to Wayne State was to be able to tighten the transition from classroom to career, right?

Because it's critically important to have those conversations.

We at Wayne, for example, have many advisory committees for our individual schools and colleges that bring that outside voices in.

But at the same time, I think there's a lot of unrealized opportunity of listening a little bit more, having direct conversations about what are the skills that are needed, not just for the first job, but you know, over a career so that we can be building that directly into the curricula through project-based learning experiences, those learning by doing internships, the summer experiences, whether it's at a governmental institution or industry large and small.

There's some opportunity there.

I don't think we've been as intentional as we could be and I don't think industry has been as intentional as it could be of linking directly and having those kind of sector by sector conversations.

And I look forward to working with my colleagues to be able to do that in Detroit, in our region, 'cause I think there's a lot of opportunity there.

- The truth is higher education for the vast majority of people who use this, and it is a service, that use this service, do it as a vehicle to a better life, oftentimes in the case of a better job.

And we need to go to employers and employers need to meet us at the table, and I know many of the employers are willing to do this and we're gonna do it together very soon.

Tell us what skills you need in exchange for a clear pathway, I.e.

a guarantee of a job for a student who can achieve those skills.

And if we do that, we'll do what's been done in other parts of the country, 'cause that's the way they do it.

And frankly, other really technical, very effective curricula have done that in the past, like Madison and Law, they've been doing this for decades, we need to do it here, and with a university like this, I'm excited that we're gonna get it done.

- So Russ, business leaders of Michigan recently had a report on community colleges in the state.

Not very favorable, although it did single out.

Henry Ford is a top performer, and one of the criticisms, perhaps its largest criticism, was the lack of coordination between our community colleges and between our universities.

Does Michigan need a university system like some states have right now?

All of our colleges and universities operate autonomously.

Do we need a coordinated system?

- Well, I'm not gonna answer that question.

(audience laughing) - Well, you're the host, you've got that prerogative.

- But I'll say it's a question for public debate, and I will just say this, there are pluses and minuses, but the pluses and minuses of those two options don't change the reality and that is that the success rates at community colleges need to go up.

I've said that publicly.

I've made that a goal for Henry Ford College.

We were called out as having done a better job, but we are not the best in Michigan yet.

We're gonna be 'cause we're committed to it.

And if we bring up success rates across the state at the two year level... By the way, we have over half of the people in higher education who are in higher education universities, private colleges, and community college, we're half the marketplace.

We're gonna improve that, and maybe that question will kind of be put on the side, 'cause as you know, it's a difficult political question.

- And was Texas a university system stay?

- Texas does have many university systems, it does indeed, and what I would say is regardless of what type of organization a particular state chooses for their higher education system, fundamentally, it comes down to leaders being willing to work with each other and engage to make things happen.

So to me, that question's relatively irrelevant.

It's about us working together towards an outcome.

- The Detroit Regional Chamber and business leaders from Michigan recently commissioned a poll asking Michigan residents under 30 if they expect to remain in the state over the next decade.

Nolan spoke with Chamber CEO Sandy Baruah right after the survey's findings were released.

(bright music) (whooshing) (bright music) (whooshing) (bright music) - Well, Sandy, you and business leaders for Michigan recently surveyed young people about their outlook for the future and particularly the future of Michigan.

It's got a bit of a disturbing finding.

1/3 of the respondents said if they look out 10 years, they don't see themselves living and working in Michigan.

Tell us about that survey.

- Well, you know, business leaders for Michigan and the Detroit Regional Chamber thought it would be very important to figure out what young people, 18 to 29 year olds are actually thinking.

I mean, there's a lot of us who are my age and your age who are wondering about that, and we definitely wanted to make sure that the governor's Grow Mission Together Population Commission had that data, but you're absolutely right.

64% of Michiganders say they see themselves here, you know, in the next 10 years or more.

That's not a bad number, but that means there's, you know, about 1/3 of Michiganders, young Michiganders, who are seriously considering moving someplace else.

- Now, the purpose of this survey is to provide some guidance to the policies, the business environment, the opportunities that are necessary to keep those young people interested and engaged in Michigan to provide the opportunities.

What do we need to do?

- Well, in my mind, there are three very clear buckets, and the first and foremost is that it's very clear that 18 to 29 year olds want the same fundamentals that every Michigander wants.

Safe streets, good schools, working infrastructure, you know, quality government.

Those are the basics, those are the fundamentals, that's bucket number one.

Bucket number two is something that you and I have talked a lot about Nolan is really solid job opportunities, but they just don't want jobs, they want careers.

They just don't want careers in companies, they want careers in companies that are exciting, that are at the leading edge, that have, you know, really modern workplace practices and that care about their employees.

I mean, you know, they just don't want jobs, they want really good careers, and they want a dynamic economy.

And the third bucket is, is that they care about social issues.

And I know this is a little controversial, you know, but the data is what the data is, and that is is that things like gun control, which is certainly not an issue that, you know, our organization, and I think I could speak for BLM, that's not on our agenda, but it certainly was shown in the survey results, you know, a woman's right to choose, you know, things like LGBTQ+ rights, and the data shows that a vast majority of people, these young people care about these issues, wanna live in a state that kind of protects those rights.

Now it's not monolithic.

I think it's very important to remember that these are not monolithic numbers, there are people who are on the other sides of these issues.

- Sandy, one thing young families, young people are looking for when they choose a place to live, are quality schools, as your survey indicates.

We have been at this for decades in terms of trying to get education right in Michigan, tried a number of different reform initiatives.

What's it going to take to finally turn the corner on improving our schools?

- Well, you know, I'm one of the original members of the Launch Michigan initiative to take a holistic look at our K through 12 education process.

And the one thing that I can say for absolute sure is that we will not achieve what we need to achieve by simply trying to reform our current system.

We need a new system.

I think, you know, people who understand what's happening in Michigan, K through 12 education will tell you that we are getting the results exactly as the process and the system is designed to deliver.

So it is not like we can take one piece of it, it's not just about metrics, it's not just about teacher accountability, it's not just about money, it is about a wholesale rethink about how we educate our children, the system that we've put them in, you know, how the teachers are compensated and how they're treated.

You know, how we hold accountable, you know, kind of at the administrative level, at the building level and at the classroom level for results.

We're not doing that right now, or if we are doing it, we're certainly not doing it well.

- Sandy, your partners at business Leaders for Michigan have mentioned Michigan's lack of sticktoitiveness as a barrier to progress in a lot of the areas you've talked to.

We start initiatives and don't support them with consistent policies, consistent commitment.

What do you do about that, and how big of an obstacle is that to our progress?

- When you think about policy initiatives or policy legislation that is passed, you know, we have this kind of flip-flop reputation in Michigan, you know, let's take our economic development policies or approach for example, you know, Jennifer Granholm had an approach, you know, my friend Rick Snyder became governor, he had his approach, you know, Gretchen Whitmer has a slightly different approach.

We are not known for consistency over administrations when there's a flippant party and then we change our policies.

When you look at successful states, states like Tennessee, Virginia, Texas, South Carolina and others, you know, they have a very consistent approach to major policy initiatives including education and including economic development.

We need to emulate that.

- Access to higher education can have barriers and challenges, especially for students of color.

Our last town hall panel discussed the impacts of diversity, equity, and inclusion on educational and economic success.

One Detroit contributor and American Black Journal host Stephen Henderson, talked with Fatima Salman from the Michigan Chapter of the National Association of Social Workers, Kimberly Faison of Detroit Future City, and Onjila O'Neil from the Institute for College Access and Success.

(bright music) (whooshing) (bright music) (whooshing) (bright music) - So I usually like to start conversations about higher ed and higher ed access with a reference to something I heard on Mackinac Island about a decade ago.

We were up there for the policy conference and Jeffrey Canada who runs the Harlem Children's Zone was there, and we were talking about higher ed, and he was talking about the tension between the idea of getting more people to college and getting more people, you know, opportunities in other ways, either through community college or skill training.

And he said, "I like to live by a pretty simple idea."

He said, "When you think about college and college access and whether you should be sending your kids to college," he said, "Do what rich people do, it seems to be working for them."

(audience laughing) And his point was that whether wealthy people are college educated themselves or not, if you ask them to a person, almost always they will say, "I'm trying to get my kid into the best college I can."

And that's because of course, statistically the outcomes for the college educated are just much better.

And when we talk about access and race or access and economics, of course, I think we need to focus on the idea that these are pathways to stability and to all the opportunities that we want people to have.

So I wanna start there, but I also want to start the conversation with Onjila for a couple reasons.

One, you were the first person in your family to go to college, a really important milestone, and now you're working on access for other folks.

So I wanna start with you talking about how we break down some of these barriers that we have for people of color in particular to get into higher ed, but also the focus that you guys have, which is on the families and the students, and not so much on the institutions and what they can do and how important that distinction is.

- Yes so I am new in the TICAS space, so the Institute for College Access and Success, short TICAS, but I come from the college access and success space and I spent a considerable amount of time in financial aid as well.

So from that experience and also being a first generation student from Detroit and hearing the narratives that exist in our community, the aspect of transparency and education and exposure becomes extremely important.

A lot of times these decisions are being made, based off of hypothetical situations that someone else has experienced without the actual engagement and understanding of how these systems work and how to navigate these systems.

And a lot of times us as professionals, we look at it as we wanna simplify things as much as possible, we wanna take the barriers off their plate, but the reality is life is life, and we still have to navigate these systems.

So teaching us what is coming before us, what these things mean, so like the conversation on specifically like the labor market for example.

It is rare that that is a discussion in the black community about what it means to get a college degree and how it will position you as it relates to stability.

What we think, especially in a blue collar state, is you work, you work hard, you put your head down and you work hard.

That is what we are taught in our homes, and for me, I made a determination that I was going to college in the third grade, because I looked around my community and I was like, "What is the one thing that no one has done here?"

And that was go to school and take school seriously.

And it's not that there is a disdain from the aspect of education itself, it is the reality of the system that we're going through.

So when a student has so many negative encounters as it relates to education, and education is treated more punitive, than it is the aspect of excitement of learning that when I get to the end and I can make a decision of what I'm going to do, I'm not going.

And that is just the reality of the conversations that are happening.

So we really have to change that narrative by the aspect of exposure and letting them know, like literally when I sit a family down and have a conversation with them about what this means for them, they have been the most combative family.

Like, I literally gotten calls from schools like, "Could you please come talk to the student?

This student has a 1200 on the SAT, they have a 3.8 GPA and they're not going to college.

And when I go in and speak with the family, it's a lot of misinformation that is layered generation, over generation, over generation.

So this aspect of protection that the system is thinking that they're doing for us, you're actually handicapping us, and this is where the students see the barriers when they get to the other side and they enroll in school and it's like, "Wait a minute, this is not what people told me this is going to be."

We have to be very conscious of that and what we are putting in front of students.

And the aspect of protecting students and family really comes from the space of seeing it.

I'm a first gen only gen college graduate in my family.

So that reality for me is like, I'm hearing the conversations that are happening.

Trade was a requirement in my mother's household.

I went to school for cosmetology.

So like a lot of people don't understand those dynamics or those conversations that are happening in the household, but that's why it becomes important for me to advocate for the voice of students and families because a lot of times that's lost in translation when you get to that 10,000 foot view.

- Yeah, at Detroit Future, you guys are trying to put this in the context of the greater kind of barriers and challenges that we face in communities of color, and particularly in the city of Detroit to economic success.

Talk about how that higher ed access and focus relates to the other gaps that we see in our communities.

- I really think about this in several layers.

So, you know, I really want to ensure that our institutions are really grounded in diversity and in equity and inclusion and justice.

Are we trauma informed and are we human centered in the way that we are designing our programs and our services?

Meaning are we actually listening to the individuals that we're seeking to serve and incorporating their voice before we design, as we implement and as we evaluate?

So that's one layer.

You know, another thing that is really important is that these institutions are working across systems to solve quality of life issues that people are experiencing.

They're not just coming to you as students, there are housing issues and transportation issues and childcare issues and all kinds of things that they're experiencing at the environmental level, at the community level and in society.

We come, you know, to your doors having experienced a whole host of things that somebody at your office may not have experienced before.

So that it's really important to be working across systems as an institution to address those quality of life issues.

And one other layer I'll just kind of speak to briefly is just the partnerships.

How are these institutions partnering with organizations who may be employers and organizations who could be institutional partners?

What does that partnership look like?

And are you also requiring that those partnerships are grounded in DEI and trauma-informed care and also human-centered?

Are we requiring the institutions that we send young people to for employment to be good corporate citizens, or are we setting them up to be in, you know, in something cyclical and creating more trauma in the process?

So those are, you know, some things that we kind of think about as like we need to be grounded in certain human-centered principles, and we also need to be removing barriers across institutions doing that back work.

We look at the numbers, but also pair that with the human experience and be removing these barriers behind the scenes as a system so that these individuals are not having to cross this barrier and this barrier and this barrier for like systems that they didn't create, so.

- Could you talk a little more about what some of those invisible to many of us barriers look like?

- There's so many, (Nolan laughing) you know, I guess I'll give like a personal experience without giving too many details.

A young person in my family is a caregiver to an individual who has to have round the clock care and they're also a college student.

You know, and so what that means for them is that they are limited in their earning potential and what they're able to do on a daily basis as a student looks very different than, you know, the folks that they're in school with.

But you also have a housing shortage.

I don't know if like the average person who is experiencing housing systems knows that we have a housing shortage, but as a system we know that.

So are we working together to solve those things?

I mean every aspect of the quality of life that we experience as humans, our students come into having all of these layers that they have to navigate.

So they're not just students, they're also experiencing the trauma of these systems.

- Yeah, yeah.

This is the context in which we're talking about growing talent, growing the population here in the state of Michigan.

It's a pretty big hill that sits in front of us, but talk about how we disrupt the things that we just heard, I guess from a state level and from the level of policy making in order to get more people to wanna stay here and then of course to come here as well.

- So how do we disrupt, right?

First of all, I think we can't disrupt unless you actually know what these barriers are, right?

Really understanding.

I know that within the council we've created very high level recommendations, but we also have to go to our actual population and see what are the issues facing Michigander specifically, those who are housing insecure, the mental health issues that are going on, right?

For students, the supports that are actually needed.

We can say "Yes, great, okay, now you've gone into college and here's your path to a job."

But what are all those supports that are needed within every single, you know, semester to help that student get through and get to that job?

And, you know, the work that I do with our Employment Equity Learning and Action collaborative ELAC is also, we've been focusing on what do workplaces need to do to be able to help their worker stay in that job, retain that job, and advance in their job as well, right?

So when we think of policy recommendations, we typically go high level, but I feel like we need to get into the minutia of it all in order to be really able to help Michiganders get through that trajectory and stay in Michigan.

- Yeah, yeah.

How do we do that though, from a state level, and again, from a policy level, how do you connect it to those things?

- Well, I think honestly because I'm on the council, I am appreciative that there are four different work groups that are working on all those different things.

But I think at this point, what also has to happen is there needs to be that collaboration between those work groups to be able to see where those alignment points in between them, right?

And so, what's amazing about The Growing Michigan Together Council is that the biggest and boldest ideas are out on the table, right?

We need support on all levels, legislatively, from the state supports, you know, every single level has to be in support of what we wanna do, right?

And so once you get all that support, which I feel like is garnering and it's growing, we're gonna be able to actually get it all the way to that policy level.

- Yeah, yeah.

Onjila, the work that you're doing with TICAS, I want to have you talk more about disruption and disruption at the family level and how you do that.

How do you, I guess, reset these expectations that you were talking about that say to people, this is not for you, this is not for your children, this is not for your family?

- I mean, the biggest thing is there's a couple things in terms of how I just approach the education conversation in general.

The first one is that we think about the education pipeline, if that makes sense, from cradle to careers and getting to that viable, stable career, correct?

But from my perspective as a student who's navigated the system and who has worked with students, we have a bunch of pipe parts, and it's not necessarily a pipeline.

And what happens for us, we're jumping from one system to the next, but that onus of figuring it out is on the student and the family.

And when you think about it from the students of color, many of these students are first generation students, so navigating that by themselves can be a lot and then the other piece of that is the aspect of proactive intentionality.

Like we are very responsive to things in education instead of looking at how to remove this barrier so that they don't have it to begin with.

So instead of getting on the back end, like, "Oh, there's transportation issues, we're gonna give you a Uber card."

Like (laughing) let's figure out a way that that doesn't become a barrier for the student at all.

But the aspect of the conversation with the families is planting these things in their spaces, thinking about where do they learn about this?

Like, "I can't learn about it at home, can't learn about it in my community.

So what other space do I have as a first generation student to learn about the employment sector, to learn about the aspects of the possibility of where I can go career-wise?

I'm limited to the knowledge and the information that is given to me in my community and at school."

And when we look at kind of like curriculum and things of that nature, where is that embedded in the pipeline to make a decision?

So when a student does get to the end, it's overwhelming.

You want me to do everything in my senior year where I'm just celebrating the fact that I made it.

(Nolan laughing) Where do we plant that seed for students and their families and taking them on the journey?

One of my biggest challenges as a student... My mother dropped out in 10th grade.

She told me in the eighth grade, "I know school is your thing."

'Cause I told you I made a determination third grade that this is what I was doing, and she was just like, "But I can't help you."

And me as a child, I don't know how to respond to that.

And it didn't take until my time in education and actually my experience in working with families, the families need to be taken on that journey with the student as well.

So when we're talking about college visits, taking the families so that we are changing that narrative of the messaging that they're hearing on a regular basis.

When you're planting the aspect of education and exposure within their respective spaces where they are every day, you're changing that narrative of how they approach the aspect of how is this valuable for me?

And I put it to a test.

I took a guardianship of my nephew during a pandemic.

He was at a Detroit public school, and we just sat down and had talks about the employment sector.

I actually had him look for jobs.

I actually had him sit down and make a monthly budget, because he's a flashy kid.

(audience and Onjila laughing) So with that, it was like, "Okay, you're flashy, let's really look at this."

And this was in his 10th grade year, and it was the first time that he had ever had a conversation about that, but he was adamant about having a job.

He knew that I need to get a job, I need to work, I need to be able to help out.

But the reality is that he wasn't looking at the aspect of what it means to invest in myself for long-term stability.

And we changed that narrative with just bringing it to his level and having a conversation about, "Oh, you like nice cars?

You like this place?

All right, this is your budget.

This is how much you're spending monthly, and what does this look like at the end for you?"

So it's really expose your transparency and being intentional about our like approaches to supporting them.

- I mean I keep on think hearing all of this and it's like, what are the supports in our higher education for all of us, right?

Does higher education even recognize all these barriers and hardships that students are facing?

How do you make sure that you have an equitable learning environment and keeping in mind all the things that are going on in that student's life, right?

In order to be able to submit their work on time, you know, get through the class, all of that, right?

So what is actually happening to give the supports?

Schools where there's chronic absenteeism, when there's students not in school?

You know, how do you actually get these supports and the things that are out there that the state and the government's offering to the people that need it the most?

- Yeah, that goes to the idea of repairing these communities, which is one of the focuses at DFC of course, but that rebuilding the institutions and the connections in the community that exist in the community is key to turning that around.

- Right, I mean and what comes to mind from all of these conversations is how do we systematize supports at the place level, you know, at the community level where you have these trusted organizations and institutions, whether they're nonprofits or places of faith, how do we have, you know, a support system that is again, trauma informed and is providing some amount of coaching and support?

'Cause you're right, there's so many programs and services that get left on the table, because maybe the policy doesn't allow for them to spend more than a certain amount to advertise a program or to advertise a service or they don't have an outreach person or they only have one outreach person, or we only have one counselor on site.

So I mean, it really comes down to having more human supports across more human supports.

- Yeah, yeah.

- That'll do it for this special episode of One Detroit.

Thanks for watching.

Head to the One Detroit website at onedetroitpbs.org for more of our future of work coverage.

For all of us at Detroit Public Television, I'm Will Glover, come back next week for another One Detroit.

- [Narrator] support for this program is provided by the Ralph C. Wilson Jr Foundation.

Additional support provided by these sponsors.

(bright music) - [Narrator] From Delta Faucets to Bear Paint.

Masco Corporation is proud to deliver products that enhance the way consumers all over the world experience and enjoy their living spaces.

Masco serving Michigan communities since 1929.

Support for this program is provided by the Cynthia & Edsel Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit Public TV.

- [Narrator] The DTE Foundation is a proud sponsor of Detroit Public TV.

Among the state's largest foundation's committed to Michigan focused giving, we support organizations that are doing exceptional work in our state.

Visit DTEFoundation.com to learn more.

- [Narrator] Nissan Foundation and Viewers Like You.

(bright music) (bright piano music)