>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> NO ONE IS BLAMING THE PROSECUTORS.

HE DID IT.

IT IS HIS CONDUCT.

>> FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP IS ARRAIGNED ONCE AGAIN, THIS TIME ON UNPRECEDENTED FEDERAL CHARGES.

I DISCUSS ACCOUNTABILITY AND CONSEQUENCES WITH HISTORIAN TIMOTHY SCHNEIDER.

>>> YOU LINE SHALL RESIGNED FROM TRUMP'S CABINET AFTER JANUARY 6th.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, PUTIN STRIKES ZELENSKYY'S HOMETOWN, A CONVERSATION WITH TWO PROMINENT EXILES ON THIS WAR.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

DONALD TRUMP IS THE FIRST EVER U.S. PRESIDENT TO BE ARRAIGNED ON FEDERAL CHARGES INCLUDING ESPIONAGE, CONSPIRACY AND OBSTRUCTION OVER THE CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS HE KEPT AFTER LEAVING OFFICE.

HE IS ENTERING HIS PLEA IN A MIAMI COURTHOUSE AFTER FLYING TO FLORIDA TO HEAR THE 37 COUNTS AGAINST HIM.

TRUMP DENIES ANY WRONGDOING AND IS STILL THE FRONT RUNNER FOR THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION FOR PRESIDENT.

BUT, THESE LATEST CHARGES HAVE SEEN SOME SENIOR MEMBERS OF THE GOP NO SOFTENER SUPPORT FOR THE CANDIDATE.

OVER THE PAST DAYS, FORMER ALLIES LIKE GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE AND ATTORNEY GENERAL BILL BARR STRONGLY CONDEMNING HIS ACTIONS AND CHRISTIE LASHED OUT AT THE REPUBLICAN FIELD FOR PUBLICLY GIVING TRUMP A PASS WILL QUIETLY HOPING THAT HIS LEGAL JEOPARDY MIGHT KNOCK HIM OUT OF THE RACE.

>> THEY ARE PLAYING POLITICAL THINK THEY KIND OF LIKE TRUMP A LITTLE BIT AND I DON'T SEE ANYTHING BAD ABOUT TRUMP'S AND TRUMP KIND OF IMPLODES AND GOES WHERE YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO VOTE FOR ME.

HOW ABOUT WE DO THIS.

HOW ABOUT YOU DECIDE WHO IS THE MOST HONEST, FORTHRIGHT LEADER, WHO HAS COMMON SENSE AND WILL PUT YOU FIRST.

HOW ABOUT WE STOP THESE GAMES?

>> TRUMP HAS DOMINATED A CLIMATE OF UNPRECEDENTED [INDISCERNIBLE] AND HE HAS BEEN PURSUED BY LEGAL WAS HIS ENTIRE CAREER BUT THIS ONE PROMISES TO BE THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL FOR HIM, THE COUNTRY, ITS INSTITUTIONS AND IF HE GETS ELECTED ANYWAY, FOR THE WHOLE WORLD.

PROFESSOR TIMOTHY SNYDER IS AN AWARD-WINNING HISTORIAN AND PROFESSIONAL OTHER FOCUSING ON THE DANGERS OF AUTHORITARIANISM AND HE IS JOINING ME NOW FROM NEW HAVEN, CONNECTICUT.

TIMOTHY SNYDER, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

LET'S PUT THIS IN THE BIG CONTEXT.

EVERYBODY SAYS OH, TRUMP, NOTHING IS SURPRISING, BUT THIS IS VERY CONSEQUENTIAL, ISN'T IT?

FOR THE WHOLE WORLD, ESSENTIALLY, LOOKING IN.

>> I WOULD START BY SAYING THE WHOLE "NOTHING IS SURPRISING IS QUOTE THING IS NOT A REACTION FROM THE GOOD GUYS, IT'S A STRATEGY FROM THE BAD GUYS.

A GOOD NUMBER OF DICTATORS AROUND THE WORLD PLAY THIS GAME.

THEY ADMIT TO BEING OUTRAGEOUS SO THAT OUR SENSIBILITIES ARE DOLED, AND THEN WHEN LINES ARE CROSSED AND LIGHTS ARE FLASHING WE DON'T NOTICE SO THIS IS ENORMOUSLY CONSEQUENTIAL.

THE FORMER PRESIDENT IS SUBJECT TO LAW JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

IF WE ALLOW THAT TO GO WE ARE LETTING CHECKS AND BALANCES GO.

WE ARE LETTING THE RULE OF LAW GO.

WE'RE LETTING THE CONSTITUTION GO.

WE'RE LETTING THE WHOLE SYSTEM GO AND THE PEOPLE WHO TRUMP WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS PUTTING THEIR WEIGHT AGAINST THE WHOLE SYSTEM.

>> AS YOU SAID, THERE ARE THOSE, WHO IN REACTION TO THIS INDICTMENT, SAY NO MAN IS ABOVE THE LAW AND AMERICA IS A NATION OF LAWS.

PRESUMABLY THAT IS THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, OPPONENTS OF THIS INDICTMENT SAY THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS WEAPONIZING THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT FOR THEIR POLITICAL BENEFIT, SO WHAT IS YOUR VIEW?

IS PUTTING THIS PRESIDENT, THIS FORMER ON TRIAL STRENGTHENING THE INSTITUTIONS OR PLAYING INTO THE HANDS OF THOSE WHO HAVE PARTISAN ICED AND POISONED AMERICAN POLITICS KNOW FOR SO MANY YEARS.

>> I WOULD START OFF BY JUST BEING VERY SUSPICIOUS OF ANYONE WHO MAKES THE CLAIM THAT THERE IS ANYTHING STRANGE ABOUT THIS.

IF YOU LOOK AT OUR AMERICAN QUITE UNUSUAL.

AROUND THE WORLD, INCLUDING IN COUNTRIES WHOSE DEMOCRACY IS UNQUESTIONABLY STRONG, LIKE FRANCE OR ITALY, AROUND THE WORLD IT IS NORMAL FOR HEADS OF GOVERNMENT TO BE TRIED, FOR HEADS OF GOVERNMENT TO BE ARRESTED, TO BE SENTENCED AFTER DUE PROCESS.

IT JUST HAPPENED IN SCOTLAND A PLACE WHERE NO ONE QUESTIONS THE RULE OF LAW.

SO WE GET OURSELVES INTO TROUBLE THE MOMENT WE START TO SAY THERE IS SOMETHING EXCEPTIONAL ABOUT THIS, BECAUSE ONCE WE SAY IT IS EXCEPTIONAL, WE ARE ALONG THE LINES OF SAYING ONE MAN IS ABOVE THE LAW AND IF ONE MAN IS ABOVE THE LAW, THEN THERE REALLY IS NOT ANY LAW.

SO, I WOULD PLEAD FOR PEOPLE TO TREAT THIS AS NORMAL TO TREAT HIM AS A NORMAL DEFENDANT AND LET THE PROCESS TAKE ITS COURSE.

ANYTHING ELSE IS PUSHING AGAINST THE SYSTEM.

>> AS WE SPEAK, YOU MENTIONED THE FIRST MINISTER OF SCOTLAND.

SHE WAS INDEED ARRESTED AND TAKEN IN FOR QUESTION REGARDING FINANCIAL PARTY IRREGULARITIES, BUT SHE HAS BEEN RELEASED AND BUT AS YOU SAY, THE SYSTEM IS WORKING.

RIGHT NOW AS WE'RE SPEAKING, BORIS JOHNSON, THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER AND CLOSE TRUMP ALLY, IS ABOUT TO BE SANCTIONED BY THE PARLIAMENT, AND HE HAS RESIGNED OVER ONGOING QUESTIONS, AND IN ISRAEL, THE CURRENT SITTING PRIME MINISTER IS ACTUALLY ON TRIAL FOR CHARGES INCLUDING CORRUPTION.

AND YET, BY AND LARGE, AND MOST OF THESE OVERSEAS, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT DEMOCRACIES, THERE IS NOT THE THREAT OF VIOLENCE, THE CALL TO PROTEST WITH THE UNDERLYING THREAT OF VIOLENCE THAT HAPPENS IN THE UNITED STATES, PARTICULARLY AROUND THIS PRESIDENT AND EVEN NOW, WE HAVE HEARD FROM FORMER CONGRESS PEOPLE AND THOSE WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER, HAVING HAD ELECTED OFFICE THAT VIOLENCE IS NOW BAKED IN TO THE AMERICAN POLITICAL SYSTEM.

WHAT IS YOUR COMMENT ON THAT?

>> I WANT TO ECHO YOUR REMARKS BECAUSE THEY SEEM TO BE VERY IMPORTANT.

IN THOSE CASES THAT YOU ARE CITING, THERE ARE SOME VERY IMPORTANT DIFFERENCES.

ONE OF THEM IS THAT THE PEOPLE WHO RECUSED, IN GENERAL, DON'T SAY EVERYTHING IS A LIE.

IN GENERAL, THEY SAY I AM INNOCENT, OR THE PROCESS SHOULD TAKE ITS COURSE, BUT THEY DON'T SAY, AS TRUMP HAS BEEN SAYING, THE ENTIRE SYSTEM IS CORRUPT.

THAT IS A VERY DAMAGING KIND OF REACTION, AND EVERYONE WHO IS SUPPORTING TRUMP IS ECHOING THAT REACTION.

SECONDLY, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT, AS YOU SAY, THAT IN GENERAL, AND ALL THE RESPECTABLE CASES, PEOPLE DO NOT THEN CALL FOR VIOLENCE, AS TRUMP AND HIS ALLIES HAVE DONE.

THE MOMENT YOU CALL FOR VIOLENCE, YOU ARE BASICALLY UPENDING THE ENTIRE PREMISE OF A CONSTITUTIONAL ORDER, WHICH IS THAT WE DON'T SETTLE THESE THINGS BY VIOLENCE.

RESETTLE THEM BY WAY OF THE LAW.

AS FAR AS LEGISLATORS GO, THIS SEEMS TO BE A VERY CRITICAL ERROR OF HAVING A LEGISLATURE IS THAT THESE PEOPLE PASS LAWS.

WHEN THEY SAY THE LAWS DON'T APPLY, WHAT THEY'RE SAYING IS THAT THEIR OWN JOB MAKES NO SENSE, THAT THEIR OWN INSTITUTION HAS NO PURPOSE, BUT WE ARE NOT A TRI-CAMERA SYSTEM.

WE DON'T HAVE A DIVISION OF POWERS.

IN FACT, WHAT WE JUST HAVE THE KIND OF LEADER AND THE FATE OF THAT LEADER IS THE ONLY THING THAT CONCERNS US.

ONCE YOUR TAKING THAT VIEW, ONCE YOU ARE ADMITTING FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF A PARLIAMENT THAT A PARLIAMENT DOESN'T MATTER, THEN YOU ARE IN FASCIST TERRITORY.

>> YOUR BOOKS, AND THE LAST ONE IS CALLED ON TYRANNY, AND AS YOU SPEAK AGAIN, WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THE SORT OF CULT LEADER, WHO AS YOU SAY, TRIES TO DRAG EVERYONE ALONG WITH THEM.

SO, BACK TO THE U.S. AND THE POLITICS OF THIS AS WE ARE OBVIOUSLY GOING TO CONTINUE WITH THE LEGAL, BUT THE POLITICS AS WELL.

AS WE MENTIONED, THERE ARE A GOOD NUMBER OF REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES FOR THE NOMINATION WHO HAVE TRIED TO BASICALLY THREAD THE NEEDLE IN A WAY THAT THEY HOPE WOULD ALIENATE TRUMP SUPPORTERS, SO HERE IS A MASHUP OF SOME OF THESE CANDIDATES WHO ARE BLAMING THE JUSTIN'S JUSTICE SYSTEM, NOT THE PERSON OF DONALD TRUMP.

>> I'M DEEPLY TROUBLED TO SEE THIS INDICTMENT MOVE FORWARD.

>> I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE ONE STANDARD OF JUSTICE IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> TODAY, WHAT WE HAVE SEEN A JUSTICE SYSTEM WHERE THE SCALES ARE WEIGHTED.

>> THIS IS THE KIND OF STUFF YOU NEVER THOUGHT WOULD HAPPEN IN AMERICA, AND SO I THINK IT IS A DANGEROUS PRECEDENT.

>> THE KIND OF STUFF YOU NEVER WOULD'VE THOUGHT WOULD HAPPEN IN AMERICA -- THERE ARE TWO ISSUES THERE.

ONE IS THAT SURELY AMERICA IS SHOWING THAT IT IS A NATION OF LAWS AND THE OTHER ISSUE IS HOW THEY ARE APPEALING TO THE BASE, WITH THESE COMMENTS.

HOW DO YOU THINK THAT IS GOING TO PLAY OUT?

POPULISTS ARE VERY SUCCESSFUL IN MAKING THOSE KINDS OF ALLEGATIONS OR FEELINGS STICK.

>> YES.

THE FIRST THING THAT I HAS TO BE SAID IS THAT IT IS, OF COURSE, TRUE THAT THE AMERICAN JUSTICE SYSTEM IS NOT PERFECT, BUT IT'S FLAWS DO NOT HAVE TO DO IN GENERAL, WITH EXTREMELY WEALTHY WHITE MEN WHO USED TO BE PRESIDENT.

IT'S FLAWS GENERALLY HAVE TO DO WITH MINORITIES, ESPECIALLY AFRICAN-AMERICANS, AND WITH PEOPLE WHO CANNOT AFFORD THE KIND OF HIGH-PRICED LEGAL PROTECTION THAT MR. TRUMP HAS.

THE SYSTEM IS WEIGHTED AGAINST PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY, BUT IT IS NOT WEIGHTED AGAINST PEOPLE LIKE MR. TRUMP.

IT IS MASSIVELY WEIGHTED IN FAVOR OF PEOPLE LIKE MR. TRUMP, WHICH MAKES IT ALL THE MORE TRUE, AS YOU HAVE SAID, THAT IN SO FAR AS THE SYSTEM IS ABLE TO PURSUE WHAT IS OBVIOUSLY AN EXTREMELY WELL GROUNDED AND THOUGHT THROUGH INDICTMENT AGAINST A CHARACTER LIKE MR. TRUMP, THAT IS A SIGN OF ITS HEALTH.

THAT IS A SIGN OF IT MOVING FORWARD.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT OUGHT TO BE ENCOURAGED.

WHEN POLITICIANS MAKE THIS KIND OF ARGUMENT, WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO SAY TO PEOPLE IS THAT THE SYSTEM IS WEIGHTED AGAINST YOU, BECAUSE IT IS WEIGHTED AGAINST MR. TRUMP, BUT THE PREMISE IS WRONG.

IT IS WEIGHTED FOR MR. TRUMP AND THE REASON WHY THIS KIND OF ALLEGATION IS DANGEROUS IS THAT IT ENCOURAGES OTHER PEOPLE AND IS MEANT TO ENCOURAGE OTHER PEOPLE TO THINK THAT THEIR REACTIONS, TOO, WOULD BE BEYOND THE LAW, THAT MR. TRUMP IS A REASONABLE EXAMPLE AND THAT ONE CAN FOLLOW THAT EXAMPLE, AND THAT, OF COURSE, IS AN ENCOURAGEMENT TO LAWLESSNESS AND UNFORTUNATELY THERE IS A VERY RECENT PRECEDENT OF THAT, WHICH IS JANUARY 6.

>> OF COURSE.

AND AFTER JANUARY 6, HIS POLLS DID GO UP.

HIS FUNDRAISING WENT UP.

ALSO AFTER THE INDICTMENT IN NEW YORK, WHICH WAS NOT A FEDERAL ONE, BUT NONETHELESS CRIMINAL --THIS IS A REALLY TRICKY SITUATION.

APPARENTLY AMERICA HAS NOT QUITE FIGURED OUT HOW TO NAVIGATE IN NOR HAS THE PARTY.

HERE IN THE UK, BORIS JOHNSON, WHO IS EQUALLY CULTLIKE, EQUALLY PRONE TO USING THE SAME POPULIST TACTICS AS DONALD TRUMP -- WE HAVE SEEN HIS PARTY, THE TORIES, BY AND LARGE EXCEPT FOR ONE OR TWO HOLDOUT, WHO ARE NO LONGER IN OFFICE ANYWAY, BASICALLY MOVING ON.

THEY JUST WANT TO MOVE ON AND THEY HAVE SAID, YOU KNOW, THAT BORIS HAS A LOT TO ANSWER FOR, BUT NOT IN THE U.S. AGAIN, NOT ONLY HAVE WE SEEN WHAT I JUST SHOWED YOU BUT AGAIN, NIKKI HALEY, WHO IS MUCH MORE OF A CENTRIST, SHE HAS TRIED TO HAVE IT ALWAYS.

THINGS CAN BE TRUE AT THE SAME TIME.

ONE, THE DOJ AND FBI HAVE LOST ALL CREDIBILITY WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND GETTING RID OF JUST SENIOR MANAGEMENT ISN'T GOING TO BE ENOUGH TO FIX THIS.

THIS IS GOING TO TAKE A COMPLETE OVERHAUL AND WE HAVE TO DO THAT.

TWO, THE SECOND THING CAN ALSO BE TRUE.

IF THIS INDICTMENT IS TRUE, IF WHAT IT SAYS IS ACTUALLY THE CASE, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS INCREDIBLY RECKLESS WITH OUR NATIONAL SECURITY.

>> YOU TOUCHED ON THAT A LITTLE BIT BEFORE, SAYING THE JUSTICE SYSTEM IS NOT PERFECT.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO HER TRYING TO HAVE IT BOTH WAYS, KNOWING THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE SAYING WELL, YOU KNOW, RESIDENT BIDEN HAD DOCUMENTS AND BEFORE THAT YOU KNOW, THE ACCUSATION AGAINST HILLARY CLINTON.

>> IT IS NOT JUST SHE IS HAVING IT BOTH WAYS.

SHE IS CONTRADICTING HERSELF, BECAUSE IF THE INDICTMENT IS CORRECT, AND I ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO READ THE INDICTMENT, BUT HER PREMISE IS THAT THE INDICTMENT IS CORRECT SHE KNOWS PERFECTLY WELL THAT IT IS WELL-ROUNDED AND THOROUGHLY RESEARCHED, THAT MEANS THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND THE FBI DID GOOD WORK AND IF THEY DID GOOD WORK THAN HER ARGUMENT THAT THEY NEED TO BE PURGED MAKES NO SENSE, SO SHE IS CONTRADICTING HERSELF.

WHAT I REGRET IS THAT THERE DOES NOT SEEM TO BE A REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE YET WHO IS ABLE TO SAY LOOK, THIS WAS A TERRIBLE MISTAKE, BETRAYAL OF NATIONAL SECURITY, AND A PRETTY OBVIOUS VIOLATION OF THE LAW.

YOU WOULD THINK EVEN IF ONLY FOR POLITICAL STRATEGIC REASONS, SOMEONE WOULD TAKE THAT LINE ON THE LOGIC THAT IT WOULD AT LEAST GIVE HIM OR HER SOME KIND OF A CHANCE WHEN THINGS FALL OUT THE WAY THEY ARE GOING TO FOLLOW.

ON THE POLITICS, ONE THING THAT MAY NOT BE UNDERSTOOD IS THAT THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL MOVE FOR THE DEMOCRATS.

THE DEMOCRATS ARE PERFECTLY AWARE THAT THIS DOES NOT HELP IS IT NOT THAT THERE IS A DEMOCRATIC CONSPIRACY TO DO THIS AGAINST MR. TRUMP.

THEY KNOW IT HELPS THEM FUND RAISE SO IT IS TWO THINGS GOING ON AT THE SAME TIME.

THERE IS A PROCEDURE AGAINST MR. TRUMP ON LEGAL GROUNDS AND THEN THE DEMOCRATS TRYING TO NAVIGATE THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN 2024, BUT THOSE TWO THINGS ARE NOT CLOSELY CONNECTED AT ALL.

THE DEMOCRATS, IF THEY WERE JUST THINKING POLITICALLY AND THEY WERE CONTROLLABLE THEN WE MIGHT HAVE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORY.

WE ACTUALLY HAVE TWO DIFFERENT STORIES.

I DON'T THINK PEOPLE REALIZE THAT.

>> GIVEN THAT THESE TWO STORIES ARE GOING TO COLLIDE DURING THE CAMPAIGN AND UP UNTIL 2024 ELECTION, THE LEGAL AND THE POLITICAL PROCESS --GIVEN THAT TRUMP INSISTS HE IS NOT GOING TO BACK OUT, IS GOING TO CONTINUE, I WOULD LIKE YOUR COMMENT ON THIS.

ACCORDING TO THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE, TO GET ON A DEBATE STAGE INTO THE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, CANDIDATES HAVE TO PLEDGE TO SUPPORT THE EVENTUAL PARTY NOMINEE WHICH AS WE DISCUSSED, RIGHT NOW, ACCORDING TO POLLS, LOOKS TO BE DONALD TRUMP.

SO, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT IS THE SAME THING FOR THE TO KNOW ARE THEY PUTTING PARTY BEFORE COUNTRY, BEFORE THIS LOYALTY PLEDGE?

WE JUST HAVE TO KNOW THAT ASA HUTCHINSON AND CHRIS CHRISTIE HAVE SAID THEY WOULD NOT SUPPORT THE TRUMP CANDIDACY IF HE WAS THE NOMINEE.

>> I'VE GOT TO SAY IT IS WEIRD FOR A PARTY WHICH TALKS ABOUT THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, IT IS VERY WEIRD FOR THEM TO BE DOING A PRE-CANCELLATION AS A PRECONDITION FOR A POLITICAL DEBATE.

I INC. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT OUGHT TO BE THOUGHT THROUGH, AND WHAT IS STRANGE ABOUT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HERE IS THAT THE PARTY ITSELF, UNFORTUNATELY, DOESN'T SEEM TO EXIST.

THERE IS A LEADER KOLTON THE LEADER CULT IS PROTECTING ITSELF AGAINST COMPETITION BY WAY OF THESE SPEECH TABOOS AND BY WAY OF THE CHARISMA, TALENT AND OUTRAGEOUS PERFORMANCE OF MR. TRUMP, BUT WHAT WE DON'T HAVE IS A REPUBLICAN PARTY WHICH LIKE THE TORIES, TO GO BACK TO YOUR COMPARISON EARLIER, HAS INSTITUTIONS AND ALTERNATIVE LEADERS AND MECHANISMS BY WHICH IT CAN MOVE ALONG.

THE REPUBLICANS DON'T REALLY HAVE THAT, AND THAT IS A BIG PART OF THEIR PROBLEM, THAT THERE IS NOT REALLY AN INSTITUTION THERE, AND THIS IS WHAT WORRIES ME ABOUT ALL THE CANDIDATES LINING UP BEHIND MR. TRUMP, BECAUSE THE CLOSEST THING THEY HAVE TO AN INSTITUTION ARE THESE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS AND IF EVERYBODY LINES UP BEHIND MR. TRUMP, THEY'RE LOOKING AT A DOOMSDAY SCENARIO WHERE TRUMP IS THE CANDIDATE, WHERE HE JUST CAN'T WIN, BECAUSE HE IS SO UNPOPULAR.

HE WILL PRESUMABLY DO WORSE AFTER THE SCANDALS AND THEN WHERE ARE THEY?

WHAT ARE THEY CALLING FOR?

THEY HAVE JUST SPENT ALL THIS TIME SUPPORTING A CANDIDATE WHO A, IS LIKELY TO LOSE AND B, HAS BEEN TEARING DOWN THE SYSTEM FOR A YEAR AND A HALF.

OR DOES THAT LEAVE YOU MORALLY AND POLITICALLY AS REPUBLICANS IN 2024 -2025?

IT IS SETTING YOU UP FOR A SITUATION WHERE IT WILL SEEM LIKE THE NATURAL THING TO DO IS TO TRY TO TEAR THE SYSTEM DOWN, IN OTHER WORDS, HAVE SOME KIND OF REPEAT OF JANUARY 6 AND I WOULD HOPE THERE WOULD BE SOME PEOPLE LOOKING AHEAD AND THINKING ABOUT THE STEPS THAT LEAD THEM IN THAT DIRECTION BEFORE THEY GO TOO FAR.

>> BE ON THE POLITICS OF IT, WHICH ARE VITAL FOR THE HEALTH OF AMERICA'S DEMOCRACY, THE POLICIES ARE ALSO VITAL.

WE KNOW THAT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP --HIS OWN AIDES SAY IN A SECOND TERM HE MAY HAVE PULLED AMERICA OUT OF NATO.

HE DID PULL AMERICA OUT OF THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL AND THERE IS GREAT PERIL NOW IN THAT REGION BECAUSE OF THAT.

AND ON CNN HE SAID THE FOLLOWING ABOUT THE UKRAINE MORE TO MODERATOR CAITLIN COLLINS AND YOU HAVE WRITTEN A LOT ABOUT THIS AND HOW SO MUCH IS AT STAKE THERE.

>> CAN YOU SAY IF YOU WANT UKRAINE OR RUSSIA TO WIN THIS WAR?

>> I WANT EVERYBODY TO STOP DYING.

THEY ARE DYING.

RUSSIANS AND UKRAINIANS.

I WANT THEM TO STOP DYING.

AND I WILL HAVE THAT DONE.

I WILL HAVE THAT DONE IN 24 HOURS I WILL HAVE THAT DONE.

YOU NEED THE POWER OF THE PRESIDENCY TO DO IT.

>> BUT YOU WON'T SAY YOU WANT UKRAINE TO WIN?

>> YOU KNOW WHAT I WILL SAY?

I WANT EUROPE TO PUT IN MORE MONEY.

THEY HAVE PLENTY OF MONEY.

>> I MEAN, THERE IS SO MUCH IN THERE, A LOT OF NON SEQUITURS, IN FACT, BUT YOU KNOW, IT IS A POTENTIAL THREAT IF HE DOES, IN FACT, MANAGED TO GET RE- ELECTED.

WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE RISKS THERE?

>> YOU MENTIONED BORIS JOHNSON EARLIER.

ONE HAS TO SAY THAT DESPITE ALL OF HIS OTHER MANIFOLD FLAWS, BORIS JOHNSON, AT THE END OF HIS TERM AS PRIME MINISTER, TOOK A CLEAR STAND ON UKRAINE AND ACTUALLY, IN MANY WAYS PUT IT WAS WILLING TO DO, A LINE WHICH HAS BEEN FOLLOWED BY HIS SUCCESSOR, AND THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A BORIS JOHNSON ON THE TRUMP.

WHATEVER IS WRONG WITH BORIS JOHNSON, HE IS NOT PART OF SOME KIND OF INTERNATIONAL CABAL OF RIGHT-WING LEADERS WHO ADMIRE ONE ANOTHER, PAT ONE ANOTHER ON THE BACK AND SUPPORT THE IDEA OF DICTATORSHIP.

UNFORTUNATELY, DONALD TRUMP IS GOING BACK A DECADE OR SO.

HE IS VERY CLOSELY CONNECTED TO VLADIMIR PUTIN.

THE THINGS THAT HE SAYS ABOUT UKRAINE AND RUSSIA TEND TO BE VERY CLOSE TO KREMLIN TALKING POINTS.

I THINK A DEEP PROBLEM WITH THE RE-ELECTION OF MR. TRUMP 'S THAT WE CAN HAVE NO EXPECTATION THAT HE WOULD PURSUE A FOREIGN POLICY OF AMERICAN INTEREST, LET ALONE A FOREIGN POLICY WHICH WOULD SUPPORT THE CAUSE OF DEMOCRACY.

THE MAN DOES NOT SUPPORT DEMOCRACY AT HOME, AND HE CERTAINLY DOES NOT SUPPORT IT ABROAD IN THE WAY THESE THINGS WORK, IT IS ALL CONNECTED, SO HE BIDEN FOREIGN POLICY SUPPORTING UKRAINIAN DEMOCRACY ABROAD IS ALSO ABIDED DOMESTIC POLICY SUPPORTING DEMOCRACY AT HOME.

THE TRUMP FOREIGN POLICY OF LETTING UKRAINE GO, READING FOR DICTATORSHIPS, IS ALSO A TRUMP DOMESTIC POLICY OF SCORNING THE DIVISION OF POWER, SCORNING THE RULE OF LAW AND SETTING HIMSELF UP AS A KIND OF LEADER WHO IS BEYOND ALL THE INSTITUTIONS.

THAT IS ONE BIG STORM.

UKRAINE IS NOT SOME FARAWAY PLACE ABOUT WHICH WE CAN KNOW LITTLE.

UKRAINE IS A PLACE WHERE THE CAUSE OF FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY IS RIGHT NOW EITHER SUPPORTED, IGNORED OR DENIED.

TRUMP IGNORES AND DENIES.

THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KEEP AMERICA STRONG AND SAFE AND DEMOCRATIC ARE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF UKRAINE AND THEY WOULD BE WILLING TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

THE ONLY WAY FOR LIVES TO BE SAVED, IS FOR UKRAINE TO WIN THE WAR AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

THE ONLY WAY FOR AMERICAN INTERESTS TO BE SECURED IS FOR UKRAINE TO WIN THAT WAR AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF RUSSIA, BECAUSE WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH AN AGGRESSIVE CHINA SO WHETHER IT IS DEMOCRACY OR INTEREST, THE ARGUMENTS ARE CLEAR.

>> WE ARE GOING TO TURN IT EXACTLY TO THAT WITH OUR NEXT GUEST, BUT FOR NOW, PROFESSOR TIMOTHY SNYDER, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED.

AS THE PROFESSOR SAID, THE VERY ISSUES WE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING -- LAW AND ORDER, DEMOCRACY, SECURITY --ALL AT STAKE IN UKRAINE AS THE WAR RAGES ON.

KEITH COUNTEROFFENSIVE IS MAKING SOME GAINS IN THE EAST BUT RUSSIA CONTINUES TO STRIKE CIVILIANS, TODAY, HITTING THE HOMETOWN OF THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.

BELARUS JUST ANNOUNCED THAT IT WILL ACCEPT RUSSIA'S DEPLOYMENT OF TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS WITHIN DAYS.

I AM JOINED NOW BY RUSSIAN VOICES SPEAKING OUT AGAINST WHAT IS BEING DONE IN THEIR NAME.

THEY ARE THE DISSIDENT AND CHESS GRANDMASTER GARY AND THE WIFE OF THE JAILED RUSSIAN OPPOSITION ACTIVISTS WHO IS CONTINUING HIS CAUSE.

BOTH OF THEM JOIN ME FROM THE OSLO FREEDOM FORM IN NORWAY.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US.

WE HAVE JUST HAD A REALLY FASCINATING DISCUSSION WITH PROFESSOR SNYDER, WHO AS YOU KNOW, WRITES A LOT ABOUT DEMOCRACY AND TYRANNY AND WHAT IS AT STAKE.

HOW CONCERNING NOW IS THE FACT THAT THIS WAR CONTINUES AND ATTACKS ALL OF OUR INSTITUTIONS AND OUR VALUES AND THE WORLD ORDER, GARY, FIRST TO YOU.

>> HERE IN OSLO, NO ONE IS SURPRISED BY THESE BRUTAL TACTICS.

PUTIN IS QUICKLY TURNING THE WORLD INTO A BATTLEFIELD AND IS USING TO TACTICS OF ATTACKING CIVILIANS AND IS DOING IT ALMOST EVERY DAY, BUT THE ON THE FRONT LINE IS GENERALLY NOT IN HIS FAVOR, WHICH DEFINITELY WILL AND REACH HIM AND INTENSIFY HIS ATTACKS.

AS FOR THE CROWD HERE IN OSLO, THEY ARE DISSIDENTS, FREEDOM FIGHTERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD THE OUTCOME OF THIS WAR WILL HAVE GREAT IMPACT FOR THE CAUSE OF FREEDOM AROUND THE GLOBE.

[INDISCERNIBLE] WHEN UKRAINE WINS, DICTATORS WILL TREMBLE.

THEY CAN EXPECT [INDISCERNIBLE] >> AND I'M NOT SURE WHETHER YOU HAVE BEEN HEARING OR LISTENING AND PAYING ATTENTION TO THE LATEST WITH DONALD TRUMP, BUT WE WERE JUST DISCUSSING IF HE DOES GET RE-ELECTED IN THE EXTRAORDINARY SITUATION THAT THIS MIGHT HAPPEN GIVEN THE LEGAL PROBLEMS HE IS UNDER, BECAUSE HE HAS OUT AND OUT EQUATED, ESSENTIALLY, UKRAINE WITH RUSSIA, AND AS WE KNOW, HE HAS NOT CALLED FOR UKRAINE TO WIN AND HE HAS BEEN, DURING HIS PRESIDENCY, VERY FRIENDLY TOWARD AND LIKE-MINDED WITH SLOTTED MOON PUTIN WHO HAS YOUR HUSBAND UNDER ARREST.

>> UNFORTUNATELY FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S AFFECTION WITH DICTATORS IS WELL KNOWN.

I BELIEVE THAT AGAIN AND REITERATE THAT UKRAINE'S VICTORY OR YOUR VICTORY IN THIS WAR IS CRUCIAL BECAUSE IT WILL SEND A VERY CLEAR SIGNAL TO ALL AUTHORITARIAN RULERS OF THE WORLD INCLUDING THOSE WHO JUST DEMONSTRATE AFFECTION FOR THOSE, THAT SUCH THINGS ARE NOT GOING TO GO UNPUNISHED BECAUSE THIS WAR CAME AS THE RESULT OF OVER TWO DECADES OF IMPUNITY THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS ENJOYED AND THAT IMPUNITY HAS GOT TO STOP.

[INDISCERNIBLE] WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE CROWD HERE AT THE OSLO FREEDOM FORUM, I THINK THE MAIN THING I SEE ON SUCH PLATFORMS IS THAT HONESTLY, THE STRUGGLE FOR FREEDOM IS UNIVERSAL, AND PEOPLE HERE UNDERSTAND THAT.

THEY UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT IS GOING ON IN UKRAINE, THE GENOCIDAL, OPPRESSIVE WAR THAT THE RUSSIAN STATE LAUNCHED AGAINST UKRAINE, AFFECTS US ALL, AND THAT FIGHT FOR FREEDOM IS UNIVERSAL AND SHOULD BE CONTINUED UNTIL ALL DICTATORS FALL.

>> I WANT TO DRILL DOWN A LITTLE BIT ON WHAT YOU BOTH THINK ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF THE RUSSIAN DISSIDENT MOVEMENT IF THERE IS SUCH A THING, AND RUSSIAN OPPOSITION LEADERS.

THE POSSIBILITY OF THEM GETTING CHANGE --I'M SURE YOU'VE SEEN THE STORIES THAT CAME OUT OF THIS WEEK'S MEETING AT THE EUROPEAN COUNCIL IN BRUSSELS, WHERE THERE WAS A LOT OF DISAGREEMENT AND OUT RIDE MUDSLINGING IF YOU LIKE, BY CERTAIN EXILES >> GARY, YOU HAVE LONG PLAYED A ROLE IN ANTI-PUTIN POLITICS AND FOR YEARS YOU AND OTHERS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SEE IF YOU CAN BUILD AN EFFECTIVE OPPOSITION.

WHAT IS THE STATE OF IT NOW?

[INDISCERNIBLE] >> THERE ARE NO PHYSICAL OPPOSITIONS TO THE COUNTRY.

[INDISCERNIBLE] WAS THERE PHYSICALLY ON THE GROUND IN BRUSSELS.

MANY OTHERS, DOZENS OF FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES --THERE ARE DISAGREEMENTS BUT PRIOR TO GLASCOW'S MEETING THERE WAS A CONFERENCE THAT LAID OUT CONDITIONS FOR OUR COOPERATION WITH EUROPEAN INSTITUTIONS AND THESE OTHER FOREIGN NGOs.

IT IS BASED ON THE SO-CALLED DECLARATION THAT CALLED FOR WAR CRIMINALS TO BE BROUGHT FOR JUSTICE, FOR RUSSIA'S TWO PAY COMPENSATION FOR THE DAMAGES AND FOR RUSSIAN IMPERIAL STRUCTURE TO PAVE THE WAY TO TRANSIT TO SOME LOOSE FEDERATION OR REPUBLIC.

EUROPEAN EUROPE EMPOWERMENT ACCEPTED THIS IS THE BASIS TO RUSSIAN OPPOSITION IN EXILE.

[INDISCERNIBLE] NOTHING WILL HAPPEN IN RUSSIA, NOTHING WILL HAPPEN WITH PUTIN BEFORE UKRAINIANS WIN THE WAR.

[INDISCERNIBLE] >> IS THE WIFE OF A POLITICAL PRISONER NOW, I CONTINUE VLADIMIR'S WORK SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF THE PRISONERS IN THE RUSSIA FEDERATION AND ALL OF THOSE OPPRESSED BY THE REGIME INSIDE THIS COUNTRY AND FORCED TO LEAVE FEARING PERSECUTION AND [INDISCERNIBLE] THERE ARE OVER 500 POLITICAL PRISONERS IN RUSSIA AND ACCORDING TO [INDISCERNIBLE] AN INDEPENDENT MEDIA PROJECT ON PERSECUTION, OVER 10,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DETAINED SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE FULL-SCALE INVASION FOR THE PROTEST AGAINST THE WAR, AND THESE DETENTIONS, THESE ARRESTS CONTINUE ON A DAILY BASIS AND MANY PEOPLE SWITCH TO PARTISAN METHODS OF OPPOSING THE REGIME.

THESE PEOPLE, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THOSE 20,000 PEOPLE DETAINED ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND THE POPULATION OF 145 MILLION, THERE MAY BE NOT ENOUGH TO BRING DOWN THE REGIME, BUT THEY DEFINITELY SHOW THAT THERE ARE MANY, THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS, PROBABLY ILION'S OF PEOPLE WHO REJECT EVERYTHING THE REGIME REPRESENTS AND WHO JUST ARE WAITING AND TRYING TO LOOK FOR WAYS TO OPPOSE IT IN ANY WAY THEY CAN, AND THAT BRUSSELS DIALOGUE, I BELIEVE, WAS A VERY PRODUCTIVE THING, AND I TRY TO MAINTAIN MY SANITY SO I KEEP MYSELF AWAY FROM SOCIAL MEDIA JUST GETTING TOO INVOLVED.

THE BRUSSELS DIALOGUE ITSELF, THERE WAS A COUPLE OF DAYS WE SPENT TALKING, DISCUSSING IMPORTANT TOPICS.

THEY WERE EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE AND WE HAVE SEEN MANY NEW, YOUNG HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST, REPRESENTATIVES OF MOVEMENT TO WORK WITH PEOPLE IN RUSSIA ON THE GROUND, AND WE BELIEVE THERE IS HOPE, OF COURSE, BECAUSE THE ONLY WAY FOR RUSSIA TO STOP BEING A THREAT TO ITSELF AND THE ENTIRE WORLD IS FOR IT TO BECOME A DEMOCRACY AND WE DEFINITELY NEED TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO SUPPORT THAT MUCH OF THE RUSSIAN POPULATION THAT UNDERSTANDS WHAT IS GOING ON AND THAT REJECTS VLADIMIR PUTIN'S REGIME AND HIS WAR IN UKRAINE.

>> EVGENIA, SADLY, HER HUSBAND, VLADIMIR, WAS ARRESTED LAST YEAR, SENTENCED TO 25 YEARS IN PRISON ON TRUMPED UP CHARGES OF TREASON.

IT IS THE LONGEST SENTENCE THE PUTIN REGIME HAS EVER HANDED DOWN.

TO A CRITIC, WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT HIS CONDITION?

ARE YOU ABLE TO BE IN TOUCH?

>> THAT 25 YEAR PRISON SENTENCE IS DEFINITELY A RECOGNITION OF THE EFFECTIVENESS OF HIS WORK.

THE REGIME FEELS THAT IT NEEDS TO LOCK HIM UP FOR 25 YEARS, FOR QUARTER OF A CENTURY TO STOP HIM FROM WORKING.

I WILL NOT ALLOW FOR THIS TO HAPPEN.

I WILL CONTINUE HIS WORK AS BEST I CAN.

MY CONTACT WITH VLADIMIR HAS BEEN ONLY THROUGH HIS LAWYERS AND ACTUALLY, HE HAD BEEN FIGHTING FOR OVER A YEAR TO HAVE PHONE CONVERSATIONS WITH HIS CHILDREN.

NO ONE EVEN WRENCHES ME AS A FOREIGN AGENT SUCH AS HE IS, BUT WITH HIS KIDS.

TWICE, HE WAS DENIED.

THE FIRST TIME THE REFUSAL CAME IN DECEMBER OF LAST YEAR.

THAT PAPER SAID THAT SUCH CONVERSATIONS WOULD IMPEDE THE DUE LEGAL PROCESS IN THE CASE AGAINST HIM.

A COUPLE OF DAYS BEFORE THE VERDICT, THE SECOND REFUSAL CAME.

THAT SAID VLADIMIR COULD NOT HAVE PHONE CONVERSATIONS WITH HIS CHILDREN BECAUSE HIS CHILDREN WERE LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

>> FINALLY, TO YOU, GARY, VLADIMIR WROTE ABOUT HOW EVERYONE IS BEING OPPRESSED.

THOSE WHO SPEAK UP AGAINST THE WAR, AND FROM A GROUP WHO MONITORS HUMAN RIGHTS IN RUSSIA, THIS IS WHAT THEY TOLD THE FINANCIAL TIMES RECENTLY.

ONLY A MINORITY OF RUSSIANS ARE EITHER ARDENTLY PRO-WAR OR ARDENTLY ANTIWAR.

THE MAJORITY LANGUISHES IN HOPELESSNESS AND FEAR.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

DO YOU THINK THAT IS GOING TO BE IT UNTIL THE WAR ENDS?

DO YOU THINK THERE IS ANYTHING THAT IS GOING TO CAUSE PEOPLE TO PROTEST?

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT BRINGING DOWN THE GOVERNMENT BUT SHOWING THE GOVERNMENT THEY WANT THIS WAR TO END?

>> I DON'T KNOW, ACTUALLY, NOBODY KNOWS BECAUSE THE PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE LEFT TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS IS PROBABLY UNDER 10%.

90% SIMPLY DO NOT RESPOND TO PHONE CALLS OR SOMEONE ASKING ABOUT THE WAR.

IN RUSSIA, [INDISCERNIBLE] INSTINCTIVELY, I AGREE WITH THIS ASSESSMENT.

I WOULD SAY THAT PROBABLY 75% MAJORITY SITTING ON THE FENCE IN FEAR AND WAITING FOR THE WAR TO COME TO AN END BUT IF HISTORY IS A GUIDE, THE MOMENT WHERE THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE RISE AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT IS THE MOMENT THE WAR IS LOST.

EVERY LAST WAR LED TO A REVOLUTION.

>> GARRY KASPAROV AND EVGENIA KARA-MURZA, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>>> TURNING NOW TO SOMEONE WHO WORKED IN TERMS CABINET BUT RESIGNED AFTER JANUARY 6, SAYING EVENTS LEFT HER DEEPLY TROUBLED AND AWAY I SIMPLY CANNOT SET ASIDE.

ELAINE CHAO WAS TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY UNDER THE FORMER PRESIDENT, WHO SHE HAS ALSO CALLED OUT FOR ANTI-ASIAN RHETORIC AFTER HE USED A DERISIVE NAME AND SUGGESTED SHE HAD TIES TO THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT.

CHAO, AS YOU KNOW, HAS LONG IN THE COUNTRY, SENATE MAJORITY LEADER MITCH McCONNELL.

HERE SHE IS NOW WITH WALTER ISAACSON.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> NICE TO BE WITH YOU.

>> YOU WERE IN PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S CABINET.

YOU RESIGNED RIGHT AFTER THE JANUARY 6th INVASION OF THE CAPITAL SAYING YOU ARE DEEPLY TROUBLED BY IT.

TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF THIS WEEK'S INDICTMENT OF HIM FOR KEEPING CLASSIFIED SECRETS AND VIOLATING THE ESPIONAGE ACT.

>> I THINK THAT IS A LEGAL CASE.

AN INDICTMENT IS AN ALLEGATION, SO LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

>> WERE YOU SURPRISED WHEN YOU SAW ALL THOSE PICTURES AND THINGS?

SOME WERE SURPRISED THAT MORE REPUBLICANS HAVE NOT TALKED ABOUT IT.

>> I WAS NOT THAT CLOSE TO HIM, SO I DON'T REALLY HAVE ANY IDEA OF WHAT HAPPENED.

>> ALL RIGHT.

DO YOU THINK THE INDICTMENT MIGHT AFFECT THE RACE?

>> I HAVE NO IDEA.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN A LONG-TIME REPUBLICAN TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE.

YOU WERE THE LABELS LABOR SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH.

YOU'RE MARRIED TO MITCH McCONNELL, THE REPUBLICAN LITTLE WHAT YOU THINK IS HAPPENED TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY SINCE THE DAYS OF GEORGE W. BUSH.

>> YOU KNOW, I'M NOT REALLY AN POLITICS.

SOME PEOPLE I BE SURPRISED TO HEAR THAT.

I'M BASICALLY IN PUBLIC SERVICE.

I'M AN IMMIGRANT TO THIS COUNTRY.

I CAME WHEN I WAS EIGHT YEARS OLD.

I KNEW SO LITTLE ABOUT THIS COUNTRY BUT WHAT MY PARENTS IMBUED UPON THEIR DAUGHTERS WAS THAT THIS WAS A WONDERFUL COUNTRY IN WHICH OPPORTUNITIES WOULD ABOUND.

THEY WERE NOT QUITE SURE WHAT THESE OPPORTUNITIES WERE TO BE BUT THEY WERE TOTALLY CONFIDENT THAT AMERICA WAS THE LAND OF HOPE AND OPPORTUNITY.

>> YOU WROTE A VERY MOVING ARTICLE IN THE WASHINGTON POST RECENTLY IN HONOR OF ASIAN AND PACIFIC ISLANDER AMERICAN MONTH AND THE REASON WE SHOULD HAVE A MUSEUM HONORING THAT CULTURE.

>> AS I MENTIONED, I AM AN IMMIGRANT TO THIS COUNTRY.

MY PARENTS LEFT CHINA DURING THE HEIGHT OF THE CIVIL WAR IN 1949.

THEY RELOCATED TO A SMALL ISLAND WHICH IS NOW VERY MUCH IN THE PRESS CALLED TAIWAN, AND MY FATHER TOOK A NATIONAL EXAMINATION.

HE SCORED NUMBER ONE, BROKE ALL THE RECORDS, AND HAVE THE CHANCE TO COME TO AMERICA.

HE WAS ALSO ONE OF THE YOUNGEST SEA CAPTAINS OF HIS TIME AT THE AGE OF 29.

FOR A YOUNG COUPLE WHO HAD NEVER SEEN WHITE PEOPLE OR ANY AMERICANS, IT WAS A TREMENDOUS VOTE OF FAITH AND THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT THIS COUNTRY PROVIDED.

MY FATHER WENT FIRST.

HE WAS ALONE IN AMERICA FOR THREE YEARS, LEAVING BEHIND HIS PREGNANT WIFE AND TWO YOUNG CHILDREN, SO WE DID NOT COME TO AMERICA UNTIL THREE YEARS LATER.

WE ARRIVED IN A BOAT.

IT TOOK 37 DAYS ON THE SEAS, AND WE LIVED IN A ONE-BEDROOM APARTMENT WHEN WE FIRST CAME TO AMERICA.

THEN, AS OUR SITUATION GOT BETTER, WE MOVED TO LONG ISLAND AND THEN WESTCHESTER COUNTY AND OUR STORY IS ONE OF MILLIONS THAT MARKED THE AMERICAN JOURNEY AND BEING ASIAN AMERICAN, I HAVE BEEN, LIKE MOST AMERICANS, I HAVE BEEN VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE INCREASE IN VIOLENCE AND ANTIPATHY AND HATRED AGAINST THE ASIAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY.

THE ASIAN AMERICAN STORY IS THE AMERICAN STORY, ONE AMONG MANY THREADS AND I WAS THINKING ABOUT HOW BEST TO COMBAT THIS RISE IN ANTI-ASIAN SENTIMENTS AND SO WHAT BETTER SOLUTION WOULD THERE BE THAN TO HAVE A MUSEUM THAT IS DEDICATED TO THE CONTRIBUTIONS AND ACHIEVEMENTS OF THE ASIAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY THAT IS HOW THE IDEA AROSE AND I THINK IT ACTUALLY HAS GREAT CURRENCY.

I WANT TO GIVE VOICE TO THE FEARS OF THIS COMMUNITY.

THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE INCREASE IN HATRED AND SENTIMENT AGAINST ASIAN AMERICANS.

IT IS FUELED BY WHAT HAPPENED WITH COVID.

EVERYONE SUFFERED DURING COVID, BUT ESPECIALLY THIS POPULATION, THIS COMMUNITY, BECAUSE SO MANY ASIAN AMERICANS OWNED THEIR OWN BUSINESSES, SO FROM AN UNEMPLOYMENT RATE OF 2.4% RECOVERED THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE JUMPED TO OVER 14% AND ON TOP OF THAT CAME HEAPS OF ABUSE AND ANGER AND ANTI-ASIAN SENTIMENTS.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK ARE THE CAUSES OF THAT?

WE HAVE SEEN COVID, AS YOU SAID, AND IT WAS LABELED BY THE PRESIDENT THEN, THE CHINA FLU.

THAT IS ONE REASON.

ARE THERE OTHER REASONS YOU THINK THIS IS HAPPENING?

>> I THINK THAT IS ONE REASON ON ALSO THE INCREASING TENSIONS BETWEEN THE U.S. CHINA RELATIONS IS ANOTHER.

A LOT OF PEOPLE CANNOT TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE ASIAN AMERICAN GROUPS AND IN FACT, THE ASIAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY IS COMPRISED OF PEOPLE FROM 80 DIFFERENT COUNTRIES WITH VERY DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS, BUT TOO MANY PEOPLE, THEY REALLY CANNOT DIFFERENTIATE ONE GROUP VERSUS ANOTHER, AND SO THESE INCREASING TENSIONS BETWEEN U.S. CHINA RELATIONS IS SPILLING OVER TO ALL ASIAN AMERICAN GROUPS AND WAS OBVIOUSLY GREAT CONCERN WITHIN THE COMMUNITY AND OUTSIDE THE COMMUNITY, AS WELL.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE NEED FOR A CULTURAL MUSEUM FOR ASIAN AMERICANS.

>> HISTORY AND CULTURE BOTH.

>> AS PART OF THE SMITHSONIAN HIM ON THE MALL, WHAT ELEMENTS OF THE HISTORY AND CULTURE WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE HIGHLIGHTED?

>> HOW MANY PEOPLE, FOR EXAMPLE, KNOW THAT ASIAN HOW MANY PEOPLE KNOW THAT ASIAN AMERICANS ACTUALLY WERE PRESENT DURING THE CIVIL WAR, AS WELL?

HOW MANY PEOPLE KNOW THAT THE TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILROAD, WHICH WAS A GREAT UNITER OF EAST AND WEST COAST IN AMERICA, THAT GAVE RISE TO THIS ECONOMIC POWERHOUSE THAT WE ARE TODAY THAT WAS DONE BY ASIAN AMERICANS.

THERE WERE 15,000 CHINESE AMERICANS PRIMARILY, WHO BUILT THE TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILROAD GOING FROM CALIFORNIA THROUGH THE TOUGH, HARD SIERRA MADRE MOUNTAINS ACROSS THE PLAINS AND CONNECTING WITH THE RAILROAD TRACKS THAT WERE COMING FROM THE EAST AND OVER 1000 CHINESE RAILROAD WORKERS DIED AND THEY WERE NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO BECOME U.S. CITIZENS, THEN OF COURSE, WE ALL KNOW --MOST OF US SHOULD KNOW ABOUT THE JAPANESE AMERICAN INCARCERATION IN INTERNMENT CAMPS.

HOW MANY PEOPLE KNEW THAT JAPANESE-AMERICANS FOUGHT VALIANTLY IN THE EUROPEAN THEATER TO PROTECT FREEDOM IN THEIR HOMELAND WHEN THEIR RELATIVES AND LOVED ONES WERE BEING INTERNED?

SO, THERE IS A LOT TO KNOW AND EVEN NOW, WE HAVE SO MANY ASIAN AMERICANS WHO ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THE VITALITY OF OUR ECONOMY SO LOOK AT SILICON VALLEY.

WE HAVE ASIAN AMERICANS WHO ARE SPEARHEADING THE DRIVE TO INNOVATION, TO TRANSFORMATION IN AMERICA AND AROUND THE WORLD.

THIS IS A COMMUNITY THAT DOES NOT TALK VERY MUCH, THEY ARE KIND OF QUIET.

THEY ARE RESERVED, BUT THE FBI STATISTICS ON HOW MANY ASIAN AMERICANS HAVE BEEN TARGETED AND THE INCREASE IN HATE CRIMES ARE STUNNING.

IN ONE YEAR ALONE, SINCE COVID, THERE WAS AN INCREASE OF 77% IN ANTI-ASIAN HATE CRIMES.

IN THE SECOND YEAR, THAT JUMPED TO 167% INCREASE AND IN THE THIRD YEAR WE SAW INCREASES OF OVER THREE TIMES THE LEVEL OF ANTI-ASIAN CRIMES, HATRED PRIOR TO COVID, SO --AND I'M SURE THOSE STATISTICS ARE ACTUALLY UNDERSTATED, BECAUSE ONCE AGAIN, THIS IS NOT A COMMUNITY THAT SPEAKS OUT VERY MUCH.

>> TWO OF THE MOST SHAMEFUL PERIODS OF AMERICAN HISTORY WHERE THE CHINESE EXCLUSION ACT IN THE 1880S AND THEN OF COURSE, THE JAPANESE INTERNMENT IN WORLD WAR II.

TO WHAT EXTENT DO THOSE TWO EVENTS STILL IMPACT THE PSYCHE OF THE ASIAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY?

>> THE CHINESE EXCLUSION ACT OF THE 1890S WAS NOT THE ONLY PIECE OF LEGISLATION THAT BARRED CHINESE AMERICANS FROM FULL PARTICIPATION IN AMERICAN LIFE.

THERE WERE LEGISLATIONS STEMMING BACK TO LATE 1700s AND THROUGHOUT THE 1800s.

AND OF COURSE, THERE ARE OTHER INSTANCES OF GREAT INJUSTICE TO OTHER GROUPS WITHIN OUR COUNTRY, AS WELL, BUT I THINK WHAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER IS THAT WE ARE A YOUNG COUNTRY THAT IS FULL OF HOPE AND PROMISE AND WILLINGNESS TO ADMIT OUR ERRORS, AND THAT WE HAVE A GREAT CAPACITY TO CHANGE, TO TRANSFORM, AND TO LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE CONTRIBUTIONS OF ASIAN AMERICANS AND ASIAN AMERICAN IMMIGRANTS, ESPECIALLY IN SILICON VALLEY AND THE TECHNOLOGY INDUSTRY.

WHAT SHOULD WE BE DOING ON IMMIGRATION?

IT SEEMS LIKE WE ARE CLAMPING DOWN TO SOME EXTENT ON VISAS AND IMMIGRATION'S.

SHOULD WE BE OPENING IT UP MORE?

>> THIS IS A HUGE ISSUE THAT WHEN PRESIDENT OBAMA HAD COMPLETE CONTROL OF THE GOVERNMENT, MEANING THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE, EVEN HE COULD NOT COME TO ANY RESOLUTION OF THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE.

I THINK REPUBLICANS BELIEVE IN LEGAL MIGRATION, AND SO THEY ARE MORE IN FAVOR OF A GUEST WORKER PROGRAM, WHEREAS DEMOCRATS WOULD WANT AMNESTY AND THEY WOULD NOT LIKE A GUEST WORKER PROGRAM.

BUT, WITH OUR ECONOMY AS LIKING AND NEEDING WORKERS AS WE DO TODAY --THERE ARE 11 MILLION VACANT JOBS IN AMERICA TODAY AND THE LABOR PARTICIPATION RATE IS QUITE LOW.

WHEN I WAS SECRETARY OF LABOR, THE AVERAGE LABOR PARTICIPATION RATE WAS 66.4% IN A WORKING POPULATION OF ABOUT 157 MILLION PEOPLE.

NOW, THAT LABOR PARTICIPATION RATE IS ONLY 62.3%.

POST-COVID.

ABOUT THE SAME WAS GROWING IN THE PAST THREE YEARS SO WE ARE MISSING SIX TO 7 MILLION WORKERS.

AND SO WE NEED SKILLED WORKERS, AS WELL.

WE NEED SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, ENGINEERING AND MATH EXPERTS AND MOST OF THE TIME, THEY ARE EXPORTED BASICALLY FROM ABROAD, SO THERE ARE A LOT OF ISSUES WITHIN THE IMMIGRATION FIELD THAT NEED ADDRESSING.

>> DO YOU THINK THEY SHOULD JUST STAPLE A VISA ON ANYBODY WHO GETS A GOOD STEM EDUCATION?

>> THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT SENATOR BENNETT OF UTAH USED TO SAY, THE LATE SENATOR BENNETT, AND WE CERTAINLY NEED MORE S.T.E.M.

STUDENTS AND WE NEED TO ENCOURAGE OUR STUDENTS HERE WHO ARE NATIVEBORN TO GO MORE INTO THE S.T.E.M.

FIELDS, INCLUDING MORE YOUNG GIRLS, TO GO INTO THE S.T.E.M.

IT HAS A LOT OF PROMISE.

IT HAS LOTS OF POTENTIAL IN TERMS OF JOB OPPORTUNITIES FOR THE FUTURE, SO WE NEED TO DO BOTH.

WE NEED TO ALLOW MORE IMMIGRATION, AND THIS IS AN AREA AGAIN OF GREAT DISCUSSION AND DISAGREEMENT, OF THESE MORE SKILLED WORKERS, BUT ALSO, WE NEED TO SOMEHOW INVEST AND MAKE MORE INTERESTING TO OUR OWN YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE NATIVEBORN, TO STUDY THE S.T.E.M.

FIELDS.

>> HELP ME MAKE SENSE OF THE LABOR PARTICIPATION RATE THESE DAYS AFTER COVID, HOW THE NATURE OF WORK IS CHANGING, AND WHAT SEEMS TO BE A VERY LOW UNEMPLOYMENT RATE.

>> ON THE FIRST FRIDAY OF EVERY MONTH COMES THE UNEMPLOYMENT NUMBERS, AND THEY ARE HELD IN GREAT SECRECY, SO IT IS AT PRECISELY 8:30 IN THE MORNING.

I REMEMBER THAT.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING NOW IS THAT AFTER THE GREAT RECESSION, THERE WAS A DROP OFF OF WORKERS.

SOME LEFT BECAUSE OF THAT LACK OF OPPORTUNITY, SOME RETIRED, AND EVER SINCE THEN, WE HAVE NOT SEEN THESE WORKERS COME BACK, AND IT COULD BE, AGAIN, THROUGH COMPETITION WITH GOVERNMENT COMPENSATION PROGRAMS.

THE LARGESS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN THE LAST FEW YEARS -- SOME WAS JUSTIFIED.

CLEARLY IN MARCH OF 2020, THE C.A.R.E.S.

ACT WAS NECESSARY, BECAUSE OUR ECONOMY WAS IN SUCH BAD SHAPE THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BASICALLY FUNDED THROUGH THE EMPLOYERS, THE PAYROLLS THEY HAD TO MAINTAIN TO KEEP WORKERS EMPLOYED.

>> HAS BEEN PHASED OUT NOW AND WE SEEM TO HAVE REALLY HIGH EMPLOYMENT, DON'T WE?

>> SUBSEQUENT TO THAT, THERE WERE ALSO VERY LARGE GOVERNMENT INJECTIONS INTO THE ECONOMY, SO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BECAME WITH THE PRIVATE SECTOR IN TERMS OF COMPENSATION AND MANY OF THESE WORKERS ARE MAKING VERY RATIONAL CHOICES AS TO WHY THEY ARE STAYING OUT OF THE WORKFORCE.

WE ARE ALSO SEEING AN INCREASE IN DISABILITY, SO THAT IS ALSO CERTAINLY A PROGRAM THAT IS NEEDED BY THOSE WHO NEED IT, BUT IT HAS ALSO TAKEN WORKERS OUT OF THE WORKFORCE.

ONE CONCERN NOW IS WHETHER THE SLOW LABOR PARTICIPATION RATE IS PERMANENT, AND WE NEED TO GET MORE PEOPLE BACK INTO THE WORKFORCE BECAUSE IT IS VITAL FOR OUR ECONOMIC RECOVERY AND THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE THAT JUST CAME OUT IN JUNE, IT IS 3.7%.

IT IS BELOW FULL EMPLOYMENT, SO EVERY EMPLOYER IN EVERY FIELD IS SO ANXIOUS HIRE A WORKERS THAT THEY NEED, AND NOT HAVING THE WORKERS AVAILABLE IS AFFECTING THE SUPPLY CHAIN AND OUR ABILITY TO PROVIDE SERVICES AND KEEP THE ECONOMY GOING IN A ROBUST CONDITION.

>> IN A WASHINGTON POST ESSAY, YOU TALK ABOUT A FEAR THAT WE MIGHT RETURN TO INTERNMENT CAMPS, A FEAR WITHIN THE ASIAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY.

THAT IS PRETTY STARTLING.

WHERE DO YOU SENSE THAT AND CAN YOU EXPAND ON THAT?

>> I DON'T HAVE TO SENSE IT.

I HEAR IT.

I HEAR IT AMONG THE COMMUNITY.

I STILL GO TO EVENTS.

I HAVE FRIENDS.

I AM PART OF THE COMMUNITY.

THESE ARE FEARS.

THAT IS WHY I SAY I WANT TO GIVE VOICE TO THEM, BECAUSE THIS IS A COMMUNITY THAT HERETOFORE HAS BEEN REALLY HARD- WORKING.

THEY DON'T SPEAK UP.

THEY DON'T COMPLAIN VERY MUCH, AND GIVEN THE LEVEL OF HATRED AND VIOLENCE DIRECTED AGAINST THIS COMMUNITY, THEY'RE FEARFUL.

THEY'RE FEARFUL THAT SUCH AN UNBELIEVABLE POSSIBILITY MAY EXIST.

70% OF CHINESE AMERICANS HAVE FELT THE STING, AND VERY OFTEN, THE PHYSICAL ATTACK OF ANTI- ASIAN HATRED THEY HAVE BEEN SPAT UPON, THEY HAVE BEEN CURSED AT.

JUST WALKING IN THE STREETS OF NEW YORK CITY, SO THIS IS NOT SOMETHING MADE UP.

THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE JUST GOING ABOUT THEIR ORDINARY BUSINESS.

THEIR COMMUTING AND SOMEONE SPITS ON THEM OR SOMEONE TELLS THEM TO GO HOME.

AMERICA IS THEIR HOME.

>> ELAINE CHAO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

THEY ARE GREAT PATRIOTS AND I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT, AS WELL.

>>> FINALLY, TONIGHT, NEWS THAT WILL MAKE BEATLES FENCE TWIST AND SHOUT.

SIR PAUL McCARTNEY HAS REVEALED THAT THERE WILL BE A FINAL BEATLES RECORD OUT LATER THIS YEAR AND THE SONG WILL HAVE JOHN LENNON'S VOCALS, THANKS TO THE HELP OF AI.

PAUL EXPLAINS THE LONG AND WINDING ROAD THAT MADE IT ALL POSSIBLE TO THE BBC THIS MORNING.

>> WHEN WE CAME TO MAKE WHAT WILL BE THE LAST BEATLES RECORD, IT WAS A DEMO THAT JOHN HAD, THAT WE WORKED ON, AND WE JUST FINISHED IT UP TO BE RELEASED THIS YEAR.

WE WERE ABLE TO TAKE JOHN'S VOICE AND GET IT PURE THROUGH THIS AI.

THEN WE COULD MIX THE RECORD AS YOU WOULD NORMALLY DO.

>> THOUGH WE DON'T KNOW FOR CERTAIN WHAT IT IS, FANS HAVE SPECULATED THAT IT WILL BE LENNON'S LONG-LOST SONG CALLED "NOW AND THEN," SO WE CAN ALL GET BACK TO BEATLEMANIA.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT FROM LONDON.