>> HELLO EVERYONE, WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN LOS ANGELES IS CHAOS THAT IS PROVOKED BY THE ADMINISTRATION.

>> NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS ARE ON THE GROUND FOR LOS ANGELES IMMIGRATION PROTESTS, AS CALIFORNIA LEADERS CALL THE WHITE HOUSE'S RESPONSE INFLAMMATORY.

WE BRING YOU THE LATEST DEVELOPMENTS.

> >> AND A DEEPER LOOK AT THE CONTEXT FOR THE UNREST.

> >> THEN --SIX MONTHS AFTER THE FALL OF JOEL AKILLIE SHED LIGHT ON HIDDEN ATROCITIES IN SYRIA'S DETAINEE FILES.

> >> THERE IS A WIDE RANGE OF PLACES WHERE TRUMP IS IMPROVING.

WHAT HE'S DOING, HE'S SQUEEZING THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

>> SPEAKING WITH NEW YORK TIMES POLITICAL WRITER, SHANE GOLDMOCHER, HOW DONALD TRUMP HAS REMADE AMERICA'S POLITICAL LANDSCAPE.

> >> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMENT M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

LAW ENFORCEMENT PRESENCE IS SCALING UP DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES AFTER A SERIES OF PROTESTS AGAINST DONALD TRUMP'S IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT THERE.

THE LOS ANGELES PD HAS DECLARED THE DISTRICT AN UNLAWFUL ASSEMBLY AREA.

AT LEAST 44 PEOPLE WERE ARRESTED SUNDAY.

POLICE USED FLASH BANG GRENADES AND TEAR GAS TO DISPERSE CROWDS.

AN AUSTRALIAN JOURNALIST WAS STRUCK BY A RUBBER BULLET WHILE COVERING THE PROTEST.

ABOUT 300 NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS ARE NOW ON THE GROUND DEPLOYED BY DONALD TRUMP OVER THE OBJECTIONS OF THE CALIFORNIA LEADERS.

HERE'S WHAT GOVERNOR GAVIN NEWSOM'S OFFICE WROTE TO DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH ON SUNDAY.

THE DECISION TO DEPLOY THE NATIONAL GUARD WITHOUT APPROPRIATE TRAINING OR ORDERS RISKS SERIOUSLY ESCALATING THE SITUATION.

HERE'S WHAT CORRESPONDENT JULIA VARGAS-JONES TOLD US A LITTLE EARLIER FROM LOS ANGELES.

>> Reporter: WE HAVE THIS HEIGHTENED POLICE PRESENCE AND THE NATIONAL GUARD RIGHT BEHIND ME HERE, GUARDING THE NATIONAL BUILDING, THAT WAS THE FOCUS OF A LOT OF THESE PROTESTS OVER THE PAST FEW DAYS.

AND JUST ACROSS FROM US, THE 101 FREEWAY BLOCKED AGAIN.

THE TRAFFIC IN LOS ANGELES THIS MORNING.

BUT WE DID SEE SO MUCH ANGER FROM THESE PROTESTERS OVERNIGHT.

THEY SAID IT WAS OVER THE SWEEPING IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT WAVES THAT HAVE BEEN TAKING PLACE, AND THAT FEELING OF A POWERLESSNESS THAT MAKES SO MANY PEOPLE TAKE TO THE STREETS TO PROTEST PEACEFULLY, ALSO MADE A LOT OF THEM TURN TO VIOLENCE AND TO SET CARS ON FIRE.

TO THROW PROJECTILES AT POLICE.

THE POLICE CHIEF HERE IN LOS ANGELES SPOKE ABOUT THIS, SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THESE TWO DIFFERENT KINDS OF PROTESTERS.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> WHEN I LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT THERE DOING THE VIOLENCE.

THAT'S NOT THE PEOPLE WE SEE DURING THE DAY, WHO ARE LEGITIMATELY OUT THERE EXERCISING THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS, TO BE ABLE TO EXPRESS THEIR FEELINGS ABOUT THE IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT ISSUE.

>> Reporter: AGAIN, THESE PROTESTS IGNITED IN RESPONSE TO RAIDS THAT STARTED ON FRIDAY.

THEN ON SATURDAY, WE WERE HERE, WHEN NEWS OF THE NATIONAL GUARD BEING DEPLOYED TO CALIFORNIA ARRIVED.

WE SAW THE REACTION FROM PROTESTERS THAT IT HAD DEFINITELY AN AFFECT OVER THE PAST FEW DAYS AND OVERNIGHT.

YESTERDAY, WE SAW THE MESSAGE FROM PROTESTERS WAS VERY CLEAR.

NO MORE IMMIGRATION RAIDS LIKE THE ONES WE'VE BEEN SEEING, AS WELL AS CALLING FOR THE NATIONAL GUARD TO GO AWAY.

>> WELL, THESE PROTESTS ARE TAKING PLACE AMIDST THE SERIES OF IMMIGRATION MEASURES BY THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE.

TODAY, NEW TRAVEL BAN FOR CITIZENS OF 12, MAINLY MIDDLE EASTERN AND AFRICAN COUNTRIES TAKES EFFECT.

> >> THE MARYLAND MAN WRONGLY DEPORTED TO EL SALVADOR WAS RETURNED TO THE U. S. TO FACE FEDERAL CRIMINAL CHARGES IN TENNESSEE.

HERE TO CONSIDER THE IMPLICATIONS OF ALL OF THIS, JASMINE MOONEY, MPR'S CORRESPONDENT.

SHE IS HERE IN NEW YORK, AND CHUNG, AN IMMIGRATION LAWYER, IMMIGRATIONS FOR IMMIGRANT JUSTICE IS FILING LAWSUITS OVER THE TREATMENT OF IMMIGRANTS.

SHE JOINS US FROM LOS ANGELES.

SUEY, LET ME START WITH YOU, YOU AREN'T OUR REPORTER ON THE SCENE, YOU'RE AN ATTORNEY, YET YOU'RE IN THE CITY WHERE ALL OF THIS ACTION HAS TAKEN PLACE.

I'M JUST WONDERING WHAT YOUR PERSPECTIVE WAS AS YOU WATCHED ALL OF THIS UNFOLD.

THE PRESIDENT REALLY TAKING AN UNPRECEDENTED STEP, SENDING IN THE NATIONAL GUARD, WITHOUT THE ASK AND COOPERATION OF THE GOVERNOR, SOMETHING WE HAVEN'T SEEN SINCE THE 1960s.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF ALL OF THIS?

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

I'M WITH AMERICANS FOR IMMIGRANT JUSTICE.

WE ARE BASED IN MIAMI, FLORIDA.

I HAPPEN TO BE IN LOS ANGELES AT THE MOMENT, SEEING ALL OF THIS UNFOLD HAS BEEN DISTURBING AND FRIGHTENING GOING FORWARD.

SO I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE CONTEXT WE'RE IN FROM THE START OF THE ADMINISTRATION, THE UNDOING OF ELEMENT SUCH AS OUR SENSITIVE LOCATIONS, MEMORANDUMS, WHERE PROTECTIONS WERE THERE FOR MEDICAL CARE, FOR HOSPITAL ACCESS FOR RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES, FOR SCHOOLS.

SO SEEING THIS ESCALATE IN SITUATIONS WHERE WE SEE THAT A LOT OF INDIVIDUALS BEING TARGETED RIGHT NOW ARE NOT THE DANGEROUS INDIVIDUALS THAT WE WERE TOLD WOULD BE TARGETED.

THOSE WITH VIOLENT CRIMINAL HISTORIES, THOSE WHO ARE ALLEGED TERRORISTS, OR OTHER SUCH LANGUAGE THAT'S BEING USED TO TARGET THOSE THAT MIGHT BE A DANGER TO OUR COMMUNITY.

WE'RE LOOKING AT TRACK REPORTS HAS RELEASED MID MAY THAT IT WAS 50,000 DETAINED AND MORE THAN 40%, 43% OF THOSE HAVE NO CRIMINAL RECORD, AS WELL AS SOME OF THOSE, EVEN IN ADDITION TO THAT, THOSE BEING TAKEN INTO CUSTODY HAVE MINOR TRAFFIC VIOLATIONS.

SO WE'RE SEEING JUST A MASS INCREASE IN DETENTION.

FAMILIES, COLLEAGUES, BUSINESS OWNERS, INDIVIDUALS THAT REALLY ARE MEMBERS OF OUR COMMUNITY, CONTRIBUTING TO OUR COMMUNITY, AND POSE NO DANGER.

SO WE'RE SEEING THIS NOW BUBBLE UP.

IF IMMIGRATION IS GOING TO GO INTO RESTAURANTS, GO TO HOME DEPOT, AND TARGET INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE NOT DANGEROUS TO OUR COMMUNITY.

THE PUBLIC IS HAVING A RESPONSE TO THAT.

>> AND JASMINE, THE PROTEST BROKE OUT ON FRIDAY AFTER WE SAW FEDERAL AGENTS SEARCH THE DISTRICT THERE FOR UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.

THERE HAD BEEN ANGER BUBBLING UP.

THERE HAD BEEN REPORTS OF PRESSURE ON I. C. E. AGENTS AND LEADERS FROM THE PRESIDENT'S TOP ADVISERS.

MOST NOTABLY, MR. MILLER, AS WE KNOW, HE HAS BEEN ASKING FOR THEM TO CLAMP DOWN EVEN MORE ON ARRESTING AND GOING AFTER -- STEPHEN MILLER HAS BEEN DOING THAT, WE SHOULD KNOW, GOING AFTER UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS HERE.

TALK ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT RIGHT NOW THAT WE'RE IN.

THE FACT THIS HAS TRANSPIRED IN CALIFORNIA, OF ALL STATES.

WE KNOW THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS THREATENED AS RECENTLY LAST WEEK TO WITHHOLD FEDERAL FUNDING FOR THAT STATE.

THERE'S PERSONAL ANIMOSITY BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND GAVIN NEWSOM, SO GIVE US THE CONTEXT HERE.

>> YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

THERE IS AN OBSESSION WITH THESE NUMBERS, RIGHT?

LIKE YOU MENTIONED, MILLER HAS SAID, YOU KNOW, THEY WANT TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF ARRESTS TO 3,000 A DAY.

THEY'RE REALLY GOING AFTER THIS NUMBER OF A MILLION PEOPLE DEPORTED IN ONE YEAR.

AS YOUR OTHER GUESTS NOTED, THE GOALPOSTS KEEP MOVING, RIGHT?

AT FIRST IT WAS, YOU KNOW, THE UNDOCUMENTED WITH CRIMINAL OFFENSES.

WE'RE GOING TO GO AFTER THE WORST OF THE WORSE.

NOW SUDDENLY WHAT WE'RE SEEING, WE'RE ALSO GOING AFTER KIDS ON THE WAY TO VOLLEYBALL PRACTICE.

WE'RE INTERRUPTING RESTAURANT HOURS.

I THINK THE AMERICAN PUBLIC -- YOU KNOW, LOS ANGELES, WHERE THINGS HAVE EXPLODED THE MOST FIERCELY.

LOS ANGELES IS NOT THE ONLY PLACE WHERE WE HAVE SEEN THESE SPONTANEOUS PROTESTS.

WE'VE SEEN THIS HAPPEN IN OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.

I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENING, THE AMERICAN PUBLIC IS SAYING WAIT A MINUTE, YOU TOLD ME YOU WERE GOING TO GO AFTER THE WORST OF THE WORSE, BUT SUDDENLY, YOU KNOW, MY CHILD'S BUDDY IS GETTING ARRESTED ON HIS WAY TO VOLLEYBALL PRACTICE.

>> RIGHT, AND THIS HAS TRADITIONALLY POLLED WELL FOR THE PRESIDENT AS WELL.

I MEAN, THIS IS SOMETHING HE CAMPAIGNED ON, GOING AFTER THE MOST DANGEROUS, ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS HERE IN THIS COUNTRY.

JASMINE, I WANT TO GET TO SOME OF YOUR REPORTING, SPECIFICALLY AS IT RELATES TO FLORIDA AND THE CASES YOU HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THERE, WHERE YOU JUST NOTED, SO MANY VOTERS THERE, MANY THAT VOTED FOR TRUMP, SAY THIS ISN'T WHAT WE THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING AFTER.

BUT BEFORE WE DO, SUI, IF WE COULD TALK ABOUT THE LEGALITY OF WHAT HAS UNFOLDED.

YOU'VE BEEN AN IMMIGRATION LAWYER NOW FOR 20 YEARS.

JUST IN TERMS OF THESE STEPS THE ADMINISTRATION HAS TAKEN BY SENDING IN THE NATIONAL GUARD, PRESIDENT TRUMP TODAY REAFFIRMING HE THOUGHT THAT WAS A GREAT DECISION ON HIS PART, TO DEAL WITH THE, "VIOLENT INSTIGATED RIOTS," IN CALIFORNIA.

GAVIN NEWSOM HAS THREATENED TO SUE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OVER THIS ACTION.

WALK US OVER WHAT GROUNDS, WALK US THROUGH WHAT GROUNDS HE MAY HAVE FOR THIS LAWSUIT BECAUSE AS I THOUGHT WAS THE CASE, THIS IS STILL WITHIN THE PRESIDENT'S PER VIEW TO DO SO, EVEN WITHOUT THE COOPERATION OF THE GOVERNOR, NO?

>> SO REALLY THIS TYPE OF CALLING IN THE NATIONAL GUARD NEEDS TO BE COMING FROM THE GOVERNOR.

TYPICALLY, WE'RE SEEING THIS IN SITUATIONS SUCH AS THERE'S AN EARTHQUAKE, THERE'S A HURRICANE.

THE NATIONAL GUARD SERVICES ARE NEEDED.

AT THIS STAGE WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE HEARING FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT IN LOS ANGELES THAT THEY WOULD LIKE BETTER COMMUNICATION.

THEY NEED TO KNOW WHY THE NATIONAL GUARD IS HERE, WHAT THE BASIS IS.

WE'RE SEEING A LOT OF INDIVIDUALS PEACEFULLY PROTESTING, THE MAJORITY, AND THAT THEY ARE EXERCISING THEIR RIGHTS TO DO SO.

SO THE FACT THAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS GONE OVER THE FACT THAT THIS REALLY NEEDED TO BE A CALL FROM THE GOVERNOR AND THAT CALL WAS NOT DONE, THAT'S WHERE WE'RE SEEING THE CONFLICT RIGHT NOW.

>> YOU'RE APPEALING TO INTERNATIONAL BODIES, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, SUI.

YOU FEEL THERE'S NOT PROPER OVERSIGHT RIGHT NOW OF THESE IMMIGRATION LAWS.

WHAT AUTHORITIES DO THESE INTERNATIONAL BODIES HAVE?

>> SO I WANT TO BRING US BACK TO SEVERAL WEEKS AGO, SEVERAL MONTHS AGO.

WE'RE SEEING EVEN MORE AS WE'RE SEEING THESE ARRESTS ARE INCREASING.

DETENTION FACILITIES ARE OVERCROWDING.

CONDITIONS HAVE DETERIORATED TREMENDOUSLY.

WE'RE TALKING INDIVIDUALS NOT GETTING BEDDING, NOT PROVIDED MEDICATION, SLEEPING ON CONCRETE FLOORS, BEING TRIPLE, QUADRUPLE THE CAPACITY.

WE'RE SEEING THIS IN THE MIAMI DETENTION FACILITIES AT THE CHROME DETENTION FACILITY CENTERS.

WE'RE DOING A REPORT WITH THE U. N. , UNITED NATION HUMAN RIGHTS COUNSEL, THE WINDOW FOR US TO MAKE SUCH A REPORT WAS CLOSING IN APRIL, AS THE UNITED STATES WAS UNDER A HUMAN RIGHTS REVIEW SINCE 2020.

THERE WILL BE A REVIEW AND A REPORTING ON THAT IN NOVEMBER OF THIS YEAR.

SO WE FELT COMPELLED WE MUST DO THAT.

THE FACT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS LET GO OR REDUCED THE BODIES, SUCH AS THE OFFICE OF CIVIL RIGHTS AND CIVIL LIBERTIES, WE FELT THE NECESSITY THAT WE NEEDED TO BE ABLE TO REPORT THIS BEYOND WHAT WE THOUGHT WERE THE TRADITIONAL MECHANISMS OF BEING ABLE TO REPORT, BUT HAD BEEN UNDONE AND REDUCED AT THIS TIME.

>> ANY RESPONSE FROM THE ADMINISTRATION IN RESPONSE TO THE FILING?

>> NOT AT THIS TIME.

AGAIN, THE U. N. , THE UNITED NATIONS, WILL BE REVIEWING OUR FILING FOR CONSIDERATION BECAUSE WE DID MEET THE DEADLINE.

WE HAVE HAD OTHER ENGAGEMENT, WHERE WE HAVE FILED OFFICIAL LETTERS PERTAINING TO THE DETENTION CENTER, TO THE FEDERAL DETENTION CENTER IN MIAMI BECAUSE OF THE CONDITIONS.

INDIVIDUALS NOT HAVING ACCESS TO DUE PROCESS.

THEY ARE VERY MUCH IN A LEGAL PROCESS BEING ABLE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES, BUT NOT HAVING ACCESS TO COUNSEL, TO FAMILY MEMBERS, TO WITNESS THIS, TO DOCUMENT.

SUDDENLY BEING TRANSFERRED.

IT'S VERY GRAVE IN THE FACT THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS THAT HAVE BEEN TAKEN INTO CUSTODY.

THEY ARE ENTITLED TO A LEGAL PROCESS, YET NOT HAVING ACCESS TO THE TRADITIONAL MECHANISMS TO BE ABLE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

>> YOU'LL KEEP US POSTED AS TO THE STATUS OF THAT CASE.

PLEASE, JASMINE, IF WE CAN GET TO YOUR REPORTING THAT WE LEWDED TO.

IN FLORIDA, TELL US ABOUT A LOCAL PASTOR WHO HAD BEEN DEPORTED BY THE NAME OF MAURILLIO AMBROSIO.

HE HAD BEEN LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES FOR 20 YEARS.

TELL US HIS STORY AND WHY YOU WERE CAPTIVATED TO REPORT ABOUT IT, THE IMPACT IT HAD ON THE COMMUNITY?

>> ABSOLUTELY, SO PASTOR AMBROSIO HAS NOT BEEN DEPORTED YET.

HE IS IN DETENTION.

HE HAS LIVED IN THE U. S. FOR 20 YEARS.

HE HAS WHAT IS KNOWN AS A STAY FOR THE LAST 13 YEARS.

HE GOES IN AT LEAST ONCE A YEAR.

HE CHECKS IN WITH THE IMMIGRATION OFFICIALS.

LETS THEM KNOW HE HAS A JOB AND DOESN'T HAVE A CRIMINAL RECORD.

FOR THE LAST 13 YEARS, THAT HAS BEEN FINE.

THEY HAVE ALLOWED HIM TO STAY, HE'S A PASTOR, A LANDSCAPER, AND HE HAS A FAMILY.

HE WENT IN FOR A CHECK IN IN FLORIDA.

HE WENT IN THIS YEAR AND GOT TAKEN IN FOR DETENTION.

DESPITE THE FACT HE DOES NOT HAVE A CRIMINAL RECORD, WHICH GOES TO SUI'S POINT, YOU KNOW.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING DETAINED RIGHT NOW DON'T HAVE CRIMINAL RECORDS.

AND HE WAS KIND OF MY IN IN TO THE DETENTION CENTER.

THE PASTOR IS AT GLADES DETENTION CENTER IN FLORIDA.

I STARTED THROUGH HIM, GETTING REPORTS OF PHONE CALLS FROM OTHER DETAINEES, FAMILY MEMBERS.

I HAVE HAD OVER A DOZEN PHONE CALLS FROM DETAINEES AND FAMILY MEMBERS WHO HAVE DESCRIBED THE SAME EXACT CONDITIONS.

PEOPLE SLEEPING ON THE FLOORS FOR WEEKS ON END.

VIRAL INFECTIONS WITH NOT ENOUGH ACCESS OR NO ACCESS TO MEDICATION.

PERHAPS THE MOST CONCERNING THING I HEARD OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN IS THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING HUNGRY.

THAT THERE'S ROTTEN FOOD BEING SERVED.

THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT GETTING MEALS.

AGAIN, THIS IS SOMETHING WE HAVE AGREED AS A SOCIETY, WE WON'T DO TO CRIMINALS.

BUT ONCE AGAIN, NOT EVERYBODY, IN FACT, THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE IN THERE RIGHT NOW WHO DO NOT HAVE A CRIMINAL RECORD.

AND SO THE WORD STARVING WAS USED AT ONE POINT, TO DESCRIBE CONDITIONS.

THIS IS NOT JUST IN FLORIDA.

THIS IS NOT JUST IN MIAMI.

I. C. E. DETENTION CENTERS, IMMIGRATION DETENTION CENTERS ARE AT ABOUT 125% CAPACITY RIGHT NOW.

SO IT'S REALLY SIMPLE MATH.

YOU KEEP DOING THESE EXTENSIVE SWEEPS, IMMIGRATION SWEEPS, INDISCRIMINATE SWEEPS, AND THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH FACILITIES TO HOLD PEOPLE, AND THE DEPORTATIONS AREN'T KEEPING UP EITHER.

>> SUI, ARE THESE TYPES OF REPORTS AND CASES YOU'RE HEARING AS WELL FROM CLIENTS?

>> VERY MUCH SO.

I ALSO WANT TO JUST MENTION, JUST VERY SEVERE SITUATIONS THAT ARE UNHEARD OF, SUCH AS AT CHROME IN ONE POINT, INDIVIDUALS WERE BEING SHACKLED, HELD ON BUSES FOR LONGER THAN 17 HOURS, LONGER THAN 24 HOURS.

OVERFLOWING TOILETS.

BECAUSE THE FACILITIES, THEMSELVES, WERE SO OVERCROWDED THAT THEY HAD TO USE BUSES TO HOLD PEOPLE ON PROPERTY.

SO REALLY SEVERE SITUATIONS OCCURRING RIGHT NOW, WHERE IT'S UNPRECEDENTED.

THIS LEVEL OF HUMAN RIGHTS VIE HAITIAN ARES THAT WE SEE IN THE DETENTION FACILITIES BECAUSE OF THE MASS NUMBERS.

I WANT TO JUST GO BACK TO THE CONCEPT OF THIS STAY OF REMOVAL.

THE FACT I. C. E. KNEW THEY WERE HERE.

THEY'VE KNOWN FOR YEARS.

THEY'VE BEEN VALUE MEMBERS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

THEY HAVE WORK AUTHORIZATION.

THIS INDIVIDUALIZED REVIEW HAS OCCURRED PREVIOUSLY IN PRIOR YEARS.

RIGHT NOW INDIVIDUALS COMING IN FOR THOSE CHECK-INS, THEY'RE LOW HANGING FRUIT.

VERY QUICKLY ABLE TO BE ARRESTED, PLACED IN FACILITIES, YET THEY POSE NO DANGER.

THEY'RE BEING SEPARATED BY FAMILY MEMBERS.

SO FAMILY SEPARATION IS OCCURRING EVERY SINGLE DAY IN THE UNITED STATES.

SEPARATIONS FROM U. S. CITIZEN AND CHILDREN, U. S. CITIZENS, ELDERLY PARENTS.

WE'RE SEEING FAMILY SEPARATION.

IT'S NOT A MATTER OF FAMILY SEPARATION AT THE BORDER ANYMORE, IT'S A DAILY OCCURRENCE.

>> AND YOU TALK ABOUT THE MORAL AND ETHICAL REACTION AND IMPACT THIS HAS.

BUT JASMINE, OBVIOUSLY THESE TYPES OF RAIDS AND SWEEPS AND DETENTIONS HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE NATION ECONOMICALLY AS WELL.

YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, THE NATIONAL RESTAURANT ASSOCIATION, 21% OF RESTAURANT WORKERS IN THE UNITED STATES WERE IMMIGRANTS IN 2024.

44% OF THE U. S. CROP WORKERS ARE UNDOCUMENTED MIGRANTS.

WE SEE THIS IN AGRICULTURE, AS WELL AS IN SOME OF THESE BORDER STATES.

WHAT DOES THE U. S. STAND TO LOSE ECONOMICALLY IF THESE NUMBERS, THESE GOALS, THAT HAVE BEEN SET BY THE ADMINISTRATION ARE ACTUALLY MET?

>> I MEAN, IT'S A TREMENDOUS LOSS.

OUR ECONOMY IS POWERED LARGE HI BY IMMIGRANT LABOR.

EVEN IF YOU WANT TO GO ON A MICRO LEVEL, GOING BACK TO THE PASTOR WE WERE TALKING ABOUT.

HE HAS CHILDREN WHO ARE ALL AMERICAN CITIZEN CHILDREN.

THE ELDEST IS A YOUNG LADY, ASHLEY AMBROCIO.

SHE IS 19 YEARS OLD, AND SHE IS NOW THE HEAD OF HER HOUSEHOLD.

THE FAMILY IS DESPERATE.

AT ONE POINT, ASHLEY'S MOTHER ASKED ME, I DON'T KNOW HOW I'M GOING TO FEED MY CHILDREN.

THIS IS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN FAMILY, WITH A FATHER FOR 13 YEARS, WAS DEEMED A DECENT GOOD ENOUGH PERSON, A PASTOR, A GOOD ENOUGH PERSON TO STAY IN THE U. S. NOW SOMETHING SHIFTED.

ANOTHER INTERESTING DETAIL THAT I'D LIKE TO SHARE ABOUT PASTOR AMBROCIO, I SPOKE TO HIS NEIGHBORS, ESPECIALLY ONE COUPLE WHO VOTED FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP.

AND THEY EXPRESSED THAT THEY WERE EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTED.

THIS WAS NOT WHAT THEY WERE PROMISED.

THEY FELT VERY UNCOMFORTABLE AND SHOCKED THAT THEIR NEIGHBOR, THE PASTOR, WAS SUDDENLY SITTING IN A DETENTION FACILITY WHERE THERE HAVE BEEN REPORTED FOOD SHORTAGES.

>> YES, THIS IS NOT WHAT THEY HAD VOTED FOR IN A SENSE IN WHAT THEY WERE SAYING, AND THE PRESIDENT MIGHT HAVE BEEN CAMPAIGNING ON THAT INTERESTED THEM.

THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO TALK TO US TODAY.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> SIX MONTHS AFTER SYRIA'S FORMER DICTATOR, BASHAR AL- ASSAD FLED TO RUSSIA, THERE ARE SIGNS THAT LIFE THERE IS RETURNING TO A FRAGILE NORMALCY.

RELAXED SANCTIONS MEANS INVESTMENT FUNDS ARE COMING IN.

SYRIANS ARE LEARNING MORE ABOUT THE THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE TORTURED AND EXECUTED UNDER THE ASSAD REGIME.

NOW IN A NEW DOCUMENTARY FROM FRONT LINE, CALLED "SYRIA'S DETAINEE FILES," SHEDS LIGHT ON THESE HIDDEN ATROCITIES.

HERE'S A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.

>> THE INSIDE STORY OF MASS DETENTION, TORTURE, AND KILLING, TOLD BY THOSE WHO CARRIED IT OUT.

>> AND THEIR VICTIMS.

>> CO-DIRECTOR, SASHA AND SARA JOIN ME NOW TO TALK ABOUT THE SEARCH FOR JUSTICE AND ACCOUNTABILITY IN SYRIA.

WELCOME, BOTH OF YOU.

THIS WAS A REALLY DIFFICULT DOCUMENTARY TO WATCH, BUT EQUALLY IMPORTANT IN LIGHT OF EVERYTHING THAT HAS TRANSPIRED SO QUICKLY IN SYRIA.

, WE SHOULD NOTE.

BOTH OF YOU DIRECTED TOPICS ON A VARIETY OF ISSUES FROM COVID TO THE WAR ON GAZA.

HOW DID YOU APPROACH THIS DOCUMENTARY?

WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO WORK TOGETHER ON TELLING THE STORY THAT IS CONTINUING TO UNFOLD?

>> SO ACTUALLY BEFORE WE STARTED THIS FILM, WE HAD COLLABORATED ON A DOCUMENTARY ABOUT ABOUT A BRITISH WOMAN WHO JOINED ISLAMIC STATES BACK IN 2015.

AFTER WE MADE THAT FILM, OUR EXECUTIVE PRODUCER APPROACHED US BECAUSE SHE HAD BEEN INTERESTED IN DOING SOMETHING ABOUT ASSAD'S PRISON.

AND WE WERE VERY EAGER TO WORK TOGETHER AGAIN, THIS TIME AS CO- DIRECTORS.

WE WORKED ON SYRIA OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, AND SO WE WERE VERY --WE KIND OF JUMPED AT THE OPPORTUNITY TO TELL THE STORY.

>> GO AHEAD, GO AHEAD.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE NOTICED WHEN TELLING THE STORY WAS THIS WAS A TOPIC THAT BEEN TOLD AND A STORY THAT BEEN TOLD A LOT FROM SURVIVORS OF DETENTION AND THE FAMILIES OF MISSING PEOPLE.

BUT WE RARELY HAD HEARD THE STORY TOLD FROM INSIDERS AND MEN WHO HAD ACTUALLY CARRIED OUT THE ORDERS THAT LED TO THE DISAPPEARANCE AND IMPRISONMENT OF TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

WE WERE KIND OF CURIOUS ABOUT THAT ASPECT, SO WE DECIDED TO GO IN AND KIND OF LIKE TAKE THAT ANGLE WHEN APPROACHING THIS TOPIC.

>> AND YOU INTERVIEWED THE VICTIMS OF THIS BARBARIC REGIME AND THE PERPETRATORS TOO, WHICH IS JUST FASCINATING.

THE DOCUMENTARY STARTED BEFORE THE FALL OF THE REGIME AS WELL.

WE TALK ABOUT HOW QUICKLY EVERYTHING PRECIPITATED AFTER THAT.

THE DOCUMENTARY FOCUSES REALLY ON TWO BROTHERS, THEIR STAY AT THE PRISON.

HOW DID YOU COME TO KNOW THESE TWO BROTHERS?

BECAUSE THEY'RE TELLING THROUGH THEIR PERSONAL STORIES IS SO EMOTIONAL AND SO POWERFUL.

IF I CAN GET SASHA TO WEIGH IN FIRST?

>> YES, SO WE TRAVELED TO SOUTHERN TURKEY, TO DO SOME DEVELOPMENTS AND RESEARCH WITH AN ORGANIZATION WHO DOCUMENTS THE STORIES OF PRISONERS WHO HAD BEEN THERE.

WE MET HIM, AND WE DIDN'T KNOW HE, HIMSELF, HAD BEEN A PRISONER.

ONE EVENING WE WENT TO DINNER WITH HIM, AND HE STARTED TELLING US HE, HIMSELF, HAD BEEN IN PRISON, AND HE STARTED TELLING US THE STORY OF HOW HE ESCAPED SYRIA, WHEN HE WAS ACTUALLY RELEASED FROM PRISON JUST BEFORE THE PANDEMIC.

SAAD AND I WERE ON THE EDGE OF OUR SEATS.

IT WAS LIKE LISTENING TO A THRILLER, AND HE WAS THIS INCREDIBLE STORY TELLER, BUT ALSO HAD THIS HORRIFIC STORY TO TELL, THAT WAS REALLY HARD TO LISTEN TO.

BECAUSE OF THE WAY HE IS, BECAUSE OF HIS NATURE, HE WAS ALWAYS ABLE TO SEE KIND OF THE IRONY AND THE SARCASM IN HIS LIFE.

SO IT JUST MADE --HE JUST MADE FOR A NATURAL STORY TELLER AND CONTRIBUTOR.

AND THEN THE FACT HE WAS HELD ALMOST 10 YEARS WITH HIS YOUNGER BROTHER AND THE LOVE BETWEEN THE TWO BROTHERS, JUST FELT LIKE THE RIGHT APPROACH WAS TO KIND OF HAVE HIM NARRATE THE STORY, WHICH IS THE STORY OF THOUSANDS OF SYRIANS.

IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT HIM, BUT HE IS ONE OF SO MANY.

>> HAVING DISCUSS BEING IN PRISON TOGETHER AND THE TORTURE HE ENDURED.

LET'S PLAY A CLIP FROM THE FILM ON THAT.

>> SARA, THAT WAS SO EMOTIONAL TO WATCH.

FOR AN AUDIENCE, WHO FOR THE MOST PART, HAS NO IDEA ON WHAT THESE FAMILIES AND WHAT THESE SYRIANS WENT THROUGH.

TO BE ABLE TO RELATE TO THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SIBLINGS THAT SO MANY PEOPLE SHARE AROUND THE WORLD, THAT BOND, WHERE ONE SAYS I COULDN'T BARE TO HEAR MY OTHER BEING TORTURED, AND THUS HE STARTED SHOUTING, SO HE COULD BE TORTURED IN HIS PLACE.

JUST TALK ABOUT THAT MOMENT.

>> THAT IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPACTFUL MOMENTS I THINK FOR BOTH OF US, WHILE WE WERE MAKING THIS FILM.

I REMEMBER OUR PRODUCER WAS ALSO IN THE ROOM WHEN THAT HAPPENED.

THAT INTERVIEW LASTED HOURS.

BUT WHEN WE WALKED OUT, THAT WAS THE THING THAT REALLY RESONATED WITH US.

I THINK IT'S BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, NONE OF US HAVE BEEN THROUGH WHAT THEY'VE BEEN THROUGH, AND THEIR EXPERIENCE SOMETIMES CAN SEEM UNRELATABLE.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE BOND OF SIBLINGS AND WHAT YOU WOULD DO FOR YOUR SIBLINGS BECOMES VERY UNIVERSAL.

IT DOESN'T JUST BECOME A SPECIFIC STORY ABOUT SYRIAN DETENTION, IT BECOMES A STORY ABOUT FAMILY AND WHAT YOU WOULD DO TO PROTECT YOUR LOVED ONES AND NOT WANTING THEM TO SUFFER.

WE ALL HAVE SIBLINGS, EVERYONE ON THE TEAM, HAS SIBLINGS THEY'RE VERY CLOSE TO.

THAT'S SOMETHING WE COULD ALL FEEL AND FELT WE NEEDED TO INCLUDE THAT IN THE FILM.

>> IT IS SO POWERFUL.

I'M SO GLAD YOU DID INCLUDE IT IN THE FILM.

SASHA, ONE THING VIEWERS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SEE SINCE THE FALL OF THE ASSAD REGIME IS HOW MANY THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES IMMEDIATELY FLOCKED FOR PRISONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, LOOKING FOR LOVED ONES THAT BEEN TAKEN AND DETAINED AND LOCKED AWAY FOR SO MANY YEARS.

WHILE TELLING THE STORY PERHAPS SOLVES AT LEAST ONE ASPECT.

YOU GET A SENSE OF THE MAGNITUDE OF THIS AS YOU PORTRAY IN THE FILM, WHERE HE'S SURROUNDED BY OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS LOOKING FOR THEIR LOVED ONES, ASKING IF HE SAW, IF HE KNEW, IF HE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR WELL BEING.

HERE IS A CLIP OF THAT.

>> I CAN ONLY IMAGINE HOW DEFLATING THAT WAS FOR HIM NOT TO HAVE ANSWERS FOR THOSE FAMILY MEMBERS.

BUT WHAT IS THE OUTCOME?

WHAT DO THEY HAVE TO LOOK FORWARD TO, IF ANYTHING, NOW IN SEARCH OF CLUES FOR THEIR LOVED ONES, AND WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM?

>> I MEAN, I THINK THE NEW GOVERNMENT HAS SET UP TWO DIFFERENT COMMITTEES TO TRY AND LOCATE ONE, LOCATE WHERE POTENTIAL MISSING PEOPLE ARE, AND ALSO LOOK AFTER THE INTEREST OF THE FAMILIES OF THE MISSING.

WHAT BECAME CLEAR WITH THE FALL OF THE REGIME WAS THAT THIS ISSUE OF THE DETAINEES, THE DETAINEE FILE, WAS AND STILL IS ONE OF THE MOST PRESSING ISSUES.

PEOPLE, MANY PEOPLE FEEL LIKE IT'S REALLY HARD TO MOVE FORWARD UNTIL THEY GET THESE ANSWERS.

I THINK THAT WHEN THE REGIME FELL, HE WAS IN SYRIA WITHIN 24 HOURS.

YOU KNOW, HE'S DESPERATE TO BE ABLE TO GIVE THESE FAMILIES ANSWERS, BUT ALSO HIMSELF ANSWERS AS TO SOME OF THE PEOPLE HE MET, WHILE HE WAS IN PRISON.

HE WENT IMMEDIATELY TO THE PRISONS HE WAS HELD.

IT WAS ALL ABOUT TRYING TO FIND THE EVIDENCE, ALL ABOUT THE DOCUMENTS.

SO IN TERMS OF LIKE WHAT CAN PEOPLE LOOK FORWARD TO?

THAT'S A REALLY DIFFICULT QUESTION BECAUSE NO ONE IS STILL YET ABLE TO ANSWER.

THERE ARE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE WORKING ON THE ISSUES THAT ARE WORKING ON THE ISSUES AROUND MASS GRAVES, BUT THAT COULD TAKE YEARS AND YEARS.

NEW MASS GRAVES ARE STILL BEING LOCATED AND STILL BEING FOUND.

SO I THINK IT'S FAR FROM OVER AND IT IS FAR FROM RESOLVED.

>> YEAH, YOU LOCATED SOME OF THOSE, WHAT ARE BELIEVED TO BE MASS GRAVES AS WELL.

WE SEE THAT IN THE FILM.

AS UNLAWFUL AS THESE DETENTIONS AND ULTIMATE MURDERS WERE, AS YOU NOTE IN THE FILM, SO MANY WERE DOCUMENTED METICULOUSLY AS WELL.

OVER THE COURSE OF THE MANY YEARS OF THE CIVIL WAR, WE SAW ASSAD TRY TO SPEAK TO THE OUTSIDE MEDIA, THE WESTERN MEDIA.

BASICALLY CLAIMING HE HAD NO CONTROL OVER HIS ARMED FORCES, OVER THE MILITARY, OVER THE SECRET POLICE, OVER THE DETENTIONS.

HE WAS ONLY PRESIDENT OF THE COUNTRY.

THAT DIDN'T SIT WELL, OBVIOUSLY, WITH MOST IN THE WEST.

ESPECIALLY THOSE SYRIANS WHO WERE AFFECTED.

SARA, THE FACT YOU SPOKE WITH FORMER OFFICIALS, SOME OF THOSE WHO WERE RUNNING THESE PRISONS.

SOME OF THOSE WHO WERE CONDUCTING THIS BRUTAL TORTURE.

HOW DID YOU GET THEM TO SIT DOWN WITH YOU?

>> THAT WAS A REALLY LONG PROCESS AND A PART OF THE REASON WHY THE DOCUMENTARY TOOK OVER TWO YEARS TO MAKE.

WE ESSENTIALLY HAD TO START LOOKING FOR PEOPLE WHO SERVED IN THE REGIME.

WE STARTED THIS IN 2023 WHEN THE ASSAD REGIME WAS STILL IN POWER.

SO GOING INTO SYRIA, GOING INTO REGIME CONTROLLED SYRIA, WAS NOT AN OPTION.

SO WE BEGAN SEARCHING FOR PEOPLE WHO HAD DEFECTED OR WHO HAD FLED SYRIA AND WERE LIVING IN, YOU KNOW, COUNTRIES ACROSS EUROPE, TURKEY, AND THE MIDDLE EAST.

IT WAS A LONG PROCESS, BUT WE EVENTUALLY WERE ABLE TO FIGURE OUT WHERE 40 DIFFERENT REGIME OFFICIALS WERE.

WE HAD VARIOUS DIFFERENT SIT- DOWNS.

SOME WERE PHONE CALLS, SOME WERE SIT-DOWNS.

EVENTUALLY EIGHT OF THEM OR NINE OF THEM WOULD GO ON CAMERA AND SPEAK TO US, BUT IT WAS KIND OF A NETWORK THAT WE HAD TO BUILD FROM SCRATCH.

THEY WOULD --INITIALLY SOME OF THESE MEN WANTED TO JUST TALK ABOUT WHAT THEY HAD DONE.

SOME PEOPLE FELT GUILTY.

THIS WAS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM TO CLEAR THEIR CONSCIENCE.

OTHERS WOULD SIT DOWN WITH US BECAUSE THEY WERE CURIOUS.

HOW DID YOU FIND ME?

WHAT DO YOU KNOW?

THEY'RE INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS, SO THEY WANT TO ASSESS US AND ASSESS US OUT.

WITH SOME, WE WERE ABLE TO GAIN TRUST, AND THEN THEY CONNECTED US TO PEOPLE THAT THEY KNEW.

YOU KNOW, WITH OTHERS, WE TRIED TO GET WHAT WE COULD GET.

EVENTUALLY WE BUILT THIS SORT OF ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WHAT THE SYRIAN INTELLIGENCE AND PRISON NETWORK LOOKED LIKE, IN ORDER FOR US TO FIGURE OUT EXACTLY WHAT KIND OF STORY WE WANTED TO TELL.

>> WE HAD AN AMAZING TEAM AS WELL.

OUR PRODUCER, OUR SYRIAN PRODUCER, SAAD, WHO HAD WORKED ENOUGH ON THIS ISSUE FOR A LONG TIME.

HE WAS ABLE TO ALSO EVALUATE WHEN PEOPLE WERE LYING BECAUSE HE KNEW HOW THE SYSTEM WORKED.

HE KNEW HOW PEOPLE, OFFICERS NEEDED TO DRESS, OR HOW THINGS WERE CONDUCTED AT THE TIME.

SO HE WAS ABLE TO ALSO LOOK FOR SIGNS OF ANY KIND OF DECEIT, SO THAT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT.

>> WHAT STOOD OUT TO ME AMONG --AND YOU'RE RIGHT, IT IS FASCINATING THAT SOME OF THESE OFFICIALS, THOSE WHO WERE PERPETRATING THESE ABUSES, TOLD YOU, SARA, THEY WERE JUST DOING WHAT WAS TOLD.

THEY WERE UNDER MARCHING ORDERS.

THEY FEARED FOR THEIR LIVES.

OTHERS SAID THEY COULDN'T LOOK IN THE MIRRORS AND HADN'T TOLD THEIR FAMILIES WHAT THEY DID.

BUT ONE LINE THAT REALLY STOOD OUT TO ME IS ONE TELLING YOU, AN INTERACTION HE HAD, WITH ONE OF THE PRISONERS AS HE WAS BEATING HIM.

AS HE FEARED DEATH.

HE TOLD HIM, HE SAID I'M GOING TO TELL GOD WHAT YOU DID.

HE SAID THAT SO EMOTIONLESS TO YOU.

BUT IT STOOD OUT TO ME.

ULTIMATELY YOUR TAKEAWAY FROM THESE CONVERSATIONS FROM THE PERPETRATORS?

>> MY TAKEAWAY IS THAT UNFORTUNATELY AFTER ALMOST 50 YEARS OF THE RULE IN SYRIA, AFTER 50 YEARS OF REGIME RULE, THERE IS SUCH --THERE'S BECOME THIS SORT OF DIVISION WITHIN SYRIAN SOCIETY THAT REALLY NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED, WHICH IS PERPETRATORS AND VICTIMS.

BUT SO MANY PEOPLE ARE, YOU KNOW, SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SORT OF FORCED TO WORK UNDER THIS REGIME.

WERE FORCED TO SORT OF BE THE FOOT SOLDIERS THAT CARRIED OUT A LOT OF THESE ORDERS.

THEN SOME PEOPLE DID THAT BY CHOICE AS WELL.

AND I THINK MY TAKEAWAY WAS SORT OF LIKE IT'S GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DETERMINE, YOU KNOW, THE EXTENT OF HOW GUILTY SOMEONE IS.

HOW MUCH AGENCY DID THEY HAVE?

WHO SHOULD WE HOLD RESPONSIBLE, WHICH SORT OF SHOWS HOW MUCH WORK SYRIANS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DO IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE TRUE TRANSITIONAL JUSTICE, THAT WILL BE ABLE TO BRING JUSTICE TO VICTIMS AND TO FAMILIES, BUT ALSO NOT SORT OF REIGNITE POTENTIAL OTHER CONFLICTS.

>> AND THAT'S AFTER COUNTING FOR ALL OF THE VICTIMS BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY, SO MANY THOUSANDS STILL UNACCOUNTED FOR.

SARA OBEIDAT AND SASHA JOELLE ACHILLI, THANK YOU FOR BRINGING SUCH A POWERFUL FILM.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NOW AN IN-DEPTH LOOK INTO AMERICA'S CHANGING ELECTORAL MAP, WHICH HAS SWEEP SWATHS OF WORKING CLASS VOTERS TURN TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY EACH TIME DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN ON THE BALLOT, INCLUDING IN AREAS WITH SIZABLE BLACK AND HISPANIC POPULATIONS.

OR SO SOME ARGUE, SHANE GOLDMACHER FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES, WHOSE LATEST REPORT EXPLORES THESE CHANGES IN VOTING BEHAVIOR.

HE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS WHAT HE FOUND AND HOW HE GOT HERE AND THE HURDLES DEMOCRATS FACE TO REGAIN FAST GROUND.

>> SHANE GOLDMACHER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US HERE FROM THE NEW YORK TIMES.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN SEVERAL INTERESTING STORIES.

I WANT TO GO THROUGH A COUPLE OF THEM.

YOUR LATEST ANALYSIS.

YOU LOOKED AT EVERY U. S. COUNTY ACROSS THE LAST FOUR PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.

FIRST OF ALL, WHY, BEFORE KIND OF WHAT YOU FOUND?

>> YEAH, I THINK THE GOAL HERE WAS TO ANSWER THE QUESTION, NOT JUST WHAT HAPPENED IN 2024 AND WHY DID DONALD TRUMP WIN, BUT WHETHER THIS WAS A ONE OFF.

WHETHER IT WAS A SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES THAT HAPPENED JUST LAST YEAR.

WAS IT INFLATION?

WAS IT JOE BIDEN WAS TOO OLD?

WAS IT THE DEMOCRATS SWITCHED CANDIDATES?

WAS IT SOMETHING KAMALA HARRIS DID WRONG?

I'M NOT DISCOUNTING ANY OF THOSE FACTORS.

THOSE ARE OBVIOUSLY ALL FACTORS IN A RACE THAT WAS THIS CLOSE, LAST YEAR'S ELECTION WAS.

BUT I WANTED TO LOOK BACK AT THE TOTALITY OF THE RESULTS SINCE TRUMP HAS BEEN ON THE BALLOT, INSTEAD OF BASELINE, WHICH IS WHY IT'S FOUR ELECTIONS.

2012, THE LAST TIME BEFORE HE WAS ON THE BALLOT, AND THEN EACH TIME HE WAS.

AND THE FINDINGS WERE PRETTY STARK.

TRUMP HAS IMPROVED IN NEARLY 50% OF THE COUNTIES IN AMERICA, EVERY SINGLE TIME HE'S BEEN ON THE BALLOT.

THAT'S NOT LIKE --THAT INCLUDES A RACE IN WHICH HE LOST, RIGHT?

SO EVEN IN 2020 WHEN HE LOST, HE WAS IMPROVING IN NEARLY HALF THE COUNTIES OF AMERICA ON HIS PREVIOUS ELECTION.

THAT KIND OF MARCH IN ONE DIRECTION REALLY TELLS THE STORY OF THE POLITICAL REALIGNMENT HAPPENING IN THE TRUMP ERA.

>> OKAY, ARE THERE ANY PLACES OR HOW MANY PLACES IS THE LEFT OR DEMOCRATS IMPROVING?

>> I MEAN VERY, VERY FEW.

SO ALL TOLD TRUMP IMPROVED CONTINUOUSLY.

SOMETHING WE'RE CALLING THESE TRIPLE TRENDING COUNTIES IN 1,433 COUNTIES IN THE COUNTRY.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, IMPROVED THREE TIMES IN A ROW IN ONLY 57 COUNTIES.

WHEN YOU PUT THIS ON THE MAP, YOU SEE THIS GIANT SEA OF RED ARROWS, AND THESE SMALL LITTLE POCKETS OF BLUE ONES, RIGHT?

IN FEW LITTLE AREAS.

THE FACT THOSE NUMBERS ARE REALLY DESPERATE IS SORT OF SCARY ENOUGH FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

IT'S ACTUALLY THE PARTICULARS OF THE PLACES THAT I THINK IS CAUSING EVEN DEEPER CONCERN AT THIS POINT.

>> SO TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

WHAT IS AN EXAMPLE OF A TRIPLE COUNTY THAT HAS CONTINUED TO TREND TOWARDS TRUMP, AND MAYBE ON THE INVERSE, WHAT WAS THE COUNTY THAT HAS MOVED AWAY FROM HIM?

>> I MEAN, THE THING THAT MAKES THE REALIGNMENT HAPPENING FOR TRUMP SO SIGNIFICANT POLITICALLY IS THE BREATH OF COUNTIES THAT ARE REALIGNING IN HIS DIRECTION.

I THINK PEOPLE SORT OF HAVE THIS INTUITIVE UNDERSTANDING THAT TRUMP HAS DONE WELL IN WHITE, RURAL AREAS, AND IT IS TRUE.

NOT ONLY DID HE DO WELL IN 2016, BUT HE HAS STRENGTHENED THOSE AREAS.

THOSE MOST REPUBLICANS ARE BECOMING EVEN REDDER.

BUT THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY, AND I THINK ONE OF THE MORE INTERESTING FINDINGS, FRANKLY, IS HIS GROWING STRENGTH IN THE MOST DIVERSE PARTS OF AMERICA.

THAT INCLUDES SMALL TOWNS IN THE SOUTH THAT ARE HEAVILY BLACK.

IT INCLUDES THE BORDER COUNTIES ALL ALONG TEXAS, WHERE YOU HAVE SOME OF THE GREATEST IMPROVEMENTS IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.

AND IT INCLUDES INNER CITIES.

IT INCLUDES PHILADELPHIA, NEW YORK CITY, QUEENS, THE BRONX, BROOKLYN, HONOLULU, RIGHT?

THERE'S A WIDE RANGE OF PLACES WHERE TRUMP IS IMPROVING.

WHAT HE'S DOING, HE'S SQUEEZING THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

HE'S GROWING HIS NUMBERS IN THE REPUBLICAN STRONGHOLDS.

HE'S SHRINKING THE DEMOCRATIC NUMBERS AND THE DEMOCRATIC STRONGHOLDS, IN THE ONLY PLACES DEMOCRATS ARE IMPROVING CONTINUOUSLY ARE THE WEALTHIEST AND BEST EDUCATED CORNERS OF THE COUNTRY.

>> YOU KNOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE DEMOGRAPHICS HERE.

IS THERE KIND OF A CLASS OR EDUCATION THEME THAT UNDERLIES THESE FLIPS?

>> FOR SURE.

I MEAN FOR A LONG TIME IN AMERICA, ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT PREDICTORS OF POLITICAL ALIGNMENT WAS RACE.

IT WAS IF YOU'RE IN A BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD, IT'S HEAVILY DEMOCRATIC.

A LATINO NEIGHBORHOOD, VERY, VERY DEMOCRATIC.

THAT'S STILL TRUE, BUT TRUMP MADE THAT LESS TRUE, AND REALLY REALIGNED ALONG CLASS DIVISIONS.

CLASS, IN TERMS OF BOTH INCOME AND IN TERMS OF EDUCATION.

ONE OF THE NUMBERS THAT REALLY IS STRIKING TO ME.

1,433 TRIPLE TRENDING TRUMP COUNTIES, RIGHT?

OF THOSE, ONLY THREE OF THEM WERE IN PLACES WHERE THE MEDIAN INCOME IN THE COUNTY WAS $100,000.

SO BASICALLY AN AMOUNT OF THE TRUMP TRENDING COUNTIES ARE THESE REALLY, REALLY WEALTHY JURISDICTIONS.

ON THE FLIP SIDE, AGAIN, ONLY 57 FOR THE DEMOCRATS HAVE MOVED IN THEIR DIRECTION CONTINUOUSLY.

18 OF THE 57, SO FAR MORE THAN THE DEMOCRATIC COUNTIES ARE THOSE WEALTHIEST PLACES IN THE COUNTRY.

THAT'S WHERE THE PARTY HAS BEEN IMPROVING.

THAT'S TRUE NATIONALLY.

AS YOU BREAK IT DOWN STATE BY STATE, IT'S TRUE THAT I LOOKED AT.

WHAT'S THE ONE COUNTY THE DEMOCRATS DID BETTER AT IN IOWA?

IT TURNS OUT IT'S THE WEALTHIEST COUNTY AND THE BEST EDUCATED COUNTY.

SIMILAR STORIES ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE LONGER ARC OF WHAT PEOPLE CONSIDER THE BASE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND THE BASE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, I MEAN, WHEN I WAS GROWING UP, IT WAS WHAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING.

IT WAS ABSOLUTELY AN INVERSE, RIGHT?

THE MOST WEALTHY PEOPLE TENDED TO BE INTRENDED TO BE REPUBLICAN.

AND THE WORKING CLASS SECTOR WERE THE, YOU KNOW, LESS EDUCATED AT TIMES SECTOR, UNION JOBS, ETC.

, BLUE-COLLAR WORKERS, ALL TENDED TO BE DEMOCRATS.

WHAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING HERE, IN A VERY SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME IN 12 YEARS, THAT STEREOTYPE IS BEING ERODED.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS WHY TRUMP'S ELECTION IN 2024 IS BEST SEEN AS SORT OF A CULMINATION OF CHANGES.

AGAIN, WE DIDN'T JUST LOOK AT HOW MUCH THE COUNTIES HAVE SHIFTED OVER TIME.

THAT TELLS A SIMILAR STORY, BUT A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.

THESE ARE PLACES THAT HAVE MARCHED IN ONE DIRECTION, RIGHT?

IT INCLUDES THE YEAR TRUMP LOST.

HE STRENGTHENED EVEN IN LOSING THAT 2020 RACE.

YEAH, I MEAN I THINK THE REASON MY FOCUS RIGHT NOW IS REALLY ON THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND HOW THEY'RE TRYING TO REBUILD THEMSELVES.

THE RESULTS OF THE 2020 ELECTION HAS CAUSED THIS, I DON'T KNOW THIS IS THE RIGHT WORD, BUT SOUL SEARCHING ABOUT THAT QUESTION.

HOW HAS THE PARTY FOR DEMOCRATS THAT HAS LONG BEEN DEFINED AS THE WORKING CLASS PARTY, AS THE PARTY OF DIVERSE COMMUNITIES, HOW ARE THEY SEEING THEIR SUPPORT IN THOSE POOR COMMUNITIES ERODING?

>> YOU KNOW, I'M HERE IN NEW YORK IN QUEENS.

I KNOW, YOU KNOW, WHEN THE RESULTS CAME BACK.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE SURPRISED FLUSHING, WHICH IS A HIGHLY CHINESE AREA OR THE BRONX, WHICH IS A HIGHLY LATINO AREA, THAT SWUNG SO MUCH MORE TOWARDS TRUMP OR BECAME PURPLE IN A BLUE FIELD.

TELL US, NATIONALLY SPEAKING, WHEN IT COMES TO BLACK AMERICANS, HOW HAVE THESE COUNTIES TRENDED.

ALSO, YOU POINT OUT A COUNTY IN YOUR REPORTING ON THE TEXAS BORDER.

>> YEAH, SO LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THAT TEXAS COUNTY TOO BECAUSE I THINK IT IS MAYBE THE MOST STRIKING SYMBOL COUNTY IN THE COUNTRY.

STAR COUNTY IN TEXAS, BORDERS MEXICO.

THIS COUNTY FROM 2012 WAS AN OVERWHELMINGLY DEMOCRATIC COUNTY.

BARACK OBAMA WON IT IN A LANDSLIDE.

IN 2024 THIS COUNTY FLIPPED AND TRUMP WON IT.

THE TOTAL SPREAD BETWEEN 2012 AND 2024 IS AN 89 PERCENTAGE POINT SWING.

THIS ISN'T LIKE A SMALL MOVEMENT.

THIS IS A POLITICAL EARTHQUAKE.

WHAT MAKES THE COUNTY SO INTERESTING, IT'S NOT JUST ON THE BORDER WHERE IMMIGRATION IS SUCH A CENTRAL ISSUE.

IT'S NOT JUST A HEAVILY LATINO COUNTY.

IT IS THE SINGLE MOST PREDOMINANTLY HISPANIC COUNTY IN AMERICA.

NOW, OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, COUNTIES AREN'T PEOPLE, RIGHT?

THERE ARE WHITE VOTERS IN EVERY COUNTY.

THIS IS A PLACE WHERE BASICALLY EVERYONE IS HISPANIC, AND THIS IS THE COUNTY THAT MOVED THE MOST.

SO ALL ACROSS THESE HEAVILY HISPANIC COUNTIES, THEY ALL MOVED IN THE TRUMP DIRECTION.

REALLY, THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS.

THERE'S NO HEAVILY HISPANIC AREA THAT SHIFTED TO THE LEFT IN THE LAST FEW YEARS.

LOOK, NOT THAT LONG AGO, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WAS TALKING ABOUT THE GROWTH OF THE LATINO POPULATION.

THE IDEA DEMOGRAPHICS WERE DESTINY.

THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WAS INCREASING BECAUSE OF THE DIVERSIFICATION ACROSS THE COUNTRY, ESPECIALLY THE GROWTH IN THE LATINO POPULATION.

WHAT YOU SEE NOW, YES, IN MANY PLACES, DEMOCRATS ARE STILL WINNING THE LATINO VOTE, BUT THEY'RE WINNING IT BY SUCH A SMALL MARGIN THAT IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO WIN ELECTIONS.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THIS COMES DOWN TO PEOPLE THINKING, OKAY, THIS WAS A PHENOMENON CALLED DONALD TRUMP.

WOULD ANY OTHER MEMBER OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY BE ABLE TO PULL OFF THIS SLIDE?

PERHAPS PEOPLE ON THE LEFT HAVE SOME OPTIMISM THAT WE'LL MAKE UP FOR THIS IN THE MIDTERM?

YOU'RE LOOKING AT A MUCH BIGGER TREND LINE THAN SOMETHING THAT FLIPS IN THE LAST TWO YEARS.

>> THERE IS A REASON FOR THEM TO BE HOPEFUL ALONG THE LINES.

DONALD TRUMP IS SUCH A SINGULAR FIGURE.

HIS REPUTATION IS DIFFERENT THAN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, EVEN AS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS SORT OF RENAMED IN HIS IMAGE.

HE SORT OF STANDS ALONE.

WE'VE SEEN PAST ELECTIONS WHEN HE'S NOT BEEN ON THE BALLOT.

OTHER REPUBLICANS HAVEN'T BUILT THOSE SAME COALITION THAT HE HAS, RIGHT?

THE 2018 MIDTERMS, IT MOVED IN THE DEMOCRATIC DIRECTION.

THE 2020 MIDTERMS, DEMOCRATS OUTPERFORMED EXPECTATIONS.

THEY'RE FEELING CONFIDENT HEADING INTO THE NEXT YEAR'S MIDTERMS.

I THINK THE QUESTION IS HOW DAMAGED HAS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY'S BRAND BEEN IN THIS PERIOD OF TIME?

HOW ARE VOTERS PROCEEDING DEMOCRATS AND HOW ARE THEY PROCEEDING REPUBLICANS?

I DON'T THINK THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS GOING TO SOLVE THEIR PROBLEMS SIMPLY BY THE REPUBLICANS CHANGING CANDIDATES, SIMPLY BY DONALD TRUMP GOING AWAY.

>> ONE OF THE REPORTING YOU HAVE, WHICH IS FASCINATING TO READ.

WHAT IS THE DEMOCRAT'S RESPONSE, SORT TO SPEAK.

WHAT YOU'RE FINDING IN SOME OF YOUR STORIES, THEY'RE REALLY NOT A SINGULAR MIND IN HOW TO PROCEED FORWARD, HOW TO RESPOND TO THIS STRATEGICALLY OVER A PERIOD OF YEARS OR EVEN IN THE SHORT TERM.

SO WHAT HAVE YOU FOUND?

>> THERE IS TWO FIGHTS I THINK HAPPENING SIMULTANEOUSLY AMONG DEMOCRATS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS THE PATH FORWARD.

ONE OF THOSE IS THE SORT OF TRADITIONAL ONE WE KNOW, WHICH IS THE LEFT VERSES THE CENTER.

DO WE MODERATE, DO WE GO MORE POPULOUS?

WHAT DO WE DO?

DO WE TRY TO REV UP THE DEMOCRATIC BASE OR DO WE APPEAL TO THE MIDDLE?

THAT FIGHT HAS BEEN HAPPENING, I THINK IT IS HAPPENING NOW AND IT HAS HAPPENED FOR MANY YEARS.

I THINK THERE IS A DIFFERENT AND FRANKLY MORE INTERESTING FIGHT THAT IS ALSO HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, WHICH IS WHAT IS THE POSTURE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

I THINK IT HAS BECOME PERCEIVED BY MANY VOTERS AS BACKING INSTITUTIONS.

THE ESTABLISHMENT, THE STATUS QUO.

THERE IS A BIG PUSH TO SAY IT'S TIME TO HAVE SOME OF THE ATTITUDE THAT DONALD TRUMP HAD.

LOOK, THE POLITICAL SYSTEM IN AMERICA, THE ECONOMIC SYSTEM IN AMERICA IS NOT WORKING FOR PEOPLE.

MOST AMERICANS DON'T FEEL CONFIDENT THAT THEY AND THEIR CHILDREN WILL BE BETTER THAN THEIR PARENTS WERE.

THIS IS A SHIFT.

THE PARTY IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT TO MEET WHERE VOTERS ARE, THE FRUSTRATION WITH THE POLITICAL SYSTEM.

AT THE SAME TIME, IT IS TRYING TO DEFEND THE SYSTEM FROM DONALD TRUMP AND THE CHANGES HE'S BRINGING ABOUT.

IT IS A REAL TENSION RIGHT NOW BETWEEN HOW DO YOU BECOME THE ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT PARTY WHEN YOU HAVE REALLY COME TO EMBODY THE ESTABLISHMENT, THE ELITES, THE COLLEGE EDUCATED WORKERS.

I THINK THIS IS A BIG FIGHT THAT ISN'T NECESSARILY HAPPENING ON THE TYPICAL SORT OF LEFT, CENTER, RIGHT ACCESS.

>> ARE THERE FAMILIAR STRATEGIES THEY'RE TRYING TO DEPLOY OR EMPLOYEE TO RECONNECT WITH CERTAIN DEMOGRAPHICS?

THERE'S BEEN AN INTERESTING CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW YOUNG MEN TRENDED, FOR EXAMPLE, TOWARDS TRUMP IN HIS LAX ELECTION IN A WAY I DON'T THINK THEY EXPECTED?

>> YEAH, FOR A LONG TIME THEY HAVE SEEN THE IDEA OF A GENDER GAP AS BENEFITING THE PARTY.

IN GENERAL, ALMOST EVERY ELECTION, WOMEN OUTNUMBER MEN AT THE BALLOT BOX.

WOMEN TEND TO VOTE IN HIGHER NUMBERS.

WOMEN HAVE TENDED TO VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS MORE FREQUENTLY THAN REPUBLICANS.

WELL, THIS IS GREAT.

WE'VE GOT A GREATER SHARE OF THE GREATER NUMBER OF VOTERS.

WHILE TRUMP DID CONTINUE TO LOSE SUPPORT AMONG WOMEN IN THE 2024 ELECTION, HE RAMPED UP THE MARGINS AMONG MEN IN A WAY THAT IS SORT OF FRIGHTENING FOR DEMOCRATS.

THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE THE ONLY ONES FROM THIS GENDER GAP.

SO YEAH, THERE WERE A LOT OF STRATEGIES.

GROUPS COMING UP WITH IDEAS.

THERE ARE FOCUSED GROUPS ALMOST EVERY DAY ACROSS THE COUNTRY IN SMALL POCKETS OF THE CORNER, WHERE DEMOCRATS ARE TRYING TO LISTEN.

HOW ARE YOU GETTING YOUR INFORMATION?

HOW DO YOU PERCEIVE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY?

WHAT CAN WE DO TO FIX IT?

>> AND SO IS THERE ANYBODY THAT HAS GOT A VOICE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY NOW THAT RESONATES AMONG MAYBE THEIR PEERS, THE DONOR CLASS, YOUNG PEOPLE?

BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND, YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, BERNIE FILLING ARENAS AROUND THE COUNTRY ON THEIR SPEAKING TOURS.

AND THEN ON THE OTHER HAND, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE SPECIFIC SORT OF PEOPLE THAT THE MODERATES ARE PUSHING ARE, BUT WHAT ARE THE EXAMPLES OF CANDIDATES THAT MIGHT BE NOT JUST A COUNTER WAY TO DONALD TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, BUT ALSO TO THIS EMERGING FORCE ON THE LEFT?

>> I MEAN, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO LOOK AT WHAT BERNIE SANDERS, WHO IS NOT RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT AGAIN, AND AOC ARE DOING.

THEY'RE HAD FILLING ARENAS, AND THEY'RE FILLING ARENAS IN RED STATES IN RED CORNERS OF THE COUNTRY.

THEY'RE SHOWING AN ENERGY, NOT JUST FOR THE LEFT IDEOLOGICALLY, BUT FOR THAT FIGHTING ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT PART OF THE PARTY.

BUT THERE ARE CERTAINLY, I THINK A NUMBER OF GOVERNORS THAT ARE ALREADY OUT THERE, SORT OF TESTING THE WATERS IN THE INTERNATIONAL FIGURES.

ANDY BESHEAR, THE GOVERNOR OF KENTUCKY.

THE DEMOCRAT WHO HAS BEEN TRAVELING THE COUNTRY.

WHITMER HAS BEEN SORT OF BRANDISHING HER NATIONAL PROFILE.

THERE'S A NUMBER OF PEOPLE POSITIONING THEMSELVES.

I THINK IT'S SO EARLY TO PICK PARTICULAR CANDIDATES.

RIGHT NOW, I THINK THE FIGHT IS OVER WHO CAN DEFINE THE PARTY HEADING INTO THE MIDTERMS.

CAN DEMOCRATS COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT IS MORE THAN JUST BEING AGAINST DONALD TRUMP?

BECAUSE LOOK, THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS, GUESS WHO TURNS OUT?

IT'S THE BETTER EDUCATED VOTERS, IT'S THE WEALTHIER VOTERS ON AVERAGE.

SO THAT GIVES THE PARTY A CHANCE, A CHANCE TO DO EVEN BETTER.

PICK UP THE HOUSE MORE LIKELY THAN NOT.

BUT THE CONCERN FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE I'VE TALKED TO, WELL, WHAT IF WE DO THAT AND DON'T MAKE FUNDAMENTAL CHANGES?

DON'T MAKE BIG CHANGES TO THE PARTY, HOW PEOPLE PERCEIVE THE DEMOCRATS.

YOU WAKE UP IN 2028 AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, GUESS WHAT, YOU DIDN'T MAKE THOSE CHANGES AND REPUBLICANS HAVE CONTINUED TO MAKE GAINS IN THOSE LESS FREQUENT WORKING CLASS VOTERS THAT DELIVERED THEM THE WHITE HOUSE THE LAST TIME.

>> YOU POINTED OUT, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT WE MIGHT HAVE A FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY BASED ON THE MIDTERMS AND WHO COMES OUT.

IS THERE, YOU KNOW, A LARGER KIND OF SOMETHING THEY'RE MISSING IN TERMS OF WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN A COUPLE MORE YEARS THAT THEY SHOULD BE PREPARING FOR NOW?

>> I MEAN, I THINK THE SMART THING IS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, THEY'RE DEEPLY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS TREND LINE.

NOT JUST FOR 2028, BUT TO GET A LITTLE WONKY WITH THIS FOR A SECOND AND BEYOND.

THE CENSUS REDRAWS THE CONGRESSIONAL LINES EVERY TEN YEARS.

THE POPULATION GROWTH, IT'S BEEN IN RED STATES.

SO THE PATH THAT WAS AVAILABLE FOR KAMALA HARRIS TO WIN THE WHITE HOUSE IN 2024 IN ALL LIKELIHOOD, THAT WON'T EXIST IN 2032 IF YOU CAN'T GROW IN THE DIVERSE STATES.

PLACES LIKE FLORIDA AND TEXAS.

THIS IS WHERE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY NEEDS TO BE COMPETITIVE.

GUESS WHAT THOSE STATES HAVE?

A LOT OF WORKING CLASS VOTERS, A LOT OF LATINO VOTERS.

THE VOTERS THE PARTY IS LOSING GROUND WITH IS THE PLACES THEY MOST NEED TO GAIN GROUND.

>> THAT WAS SHANE GOLDMACHER OF THE NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES.

> >> AND FINALLY FOR US, BROADWAY'S BIGGEST NIGHT.

SUNDAY MARKS THE 78th ANNUAL TONY AWARDS.

AMONG THE WINNERS, EUREKA DAY FOR BEST SURVIVAL.

THE STORY EXPLORES A CALIFORNIA SCHOOL GRAPPLING WITH A MUMPS OUTBREAK.

THE PRE-PANDEMIC DEBATE ON WHETHER TO VACCINATE STUDENTS IN RESPONSE.

EARLIER THIS YEAR, CHRISTIANE SPOKE TO STARS.

THEY DISCUSSED HOW THE PLAY RESONATES TODAY.

>> IT REVEALS ITSELF TO BE A VERY SHREWD BIT OF PLAY WRITING IN RESPECT TO WHAT'S GOING ON.

BUT ALSO AS WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, WE'VE HIT THE CURVE OF HISTORY.

SINCE THE PLAY WAS WRITTEN, THE PANDEMIC GRIPPED THE WORLD.

THE SOCIAL JUSTICE RECKONING MOMENT WHEN GEORGE FLOYD WAS KILLED.

ELECTION RESULTS, THINGS THAT, LIKE I SAID WE WERE FEARFUL WE MIGHT FALL BEHIND THE CURVE OF HISTORY.

IT IS ACTUALLY A VERY CURRENT CONVERSATION.

> >> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR AND COMPANY ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

>