Thanks for joining us.

Representative Alabas Farhat is here.

He's the ranking Democra on the House Budget Committee.

Our lead story, another Democrat enters the race for governor.

His name, Lieutenant Governor Garlin Gilchrist.

On the OTR panel, Kyle Melinn, Emily Lawler and Colin Jackson.

Sit down with us as we get the inside out.

Off the record.

Production of Off the Record is made possible in par by bellwether public relations, a full servic strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and issue advocacy.

Learn more at bellwetherpr.com And now this edition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick.

Thank you very much.

Welcome back to Studio and we have a new gubernatorial candidate Garlin Gilchrist.

You surprised?

I mean, not really.

This is something that he's wanted for a long time.

It's been no secre that he's wanted higher office.

I think that I mean, he's been lieutenant governor for six years now.

I think the issue for him, though, for real, is figuring out what lane is he going to occup within this Democratic primary nomination process.

You already have Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson trying to take u some of the progressive votes.

You have Genesee County Sheriff Chris Swanson taking on kind of more o like the working class appeal.

And so you have Lieutenant Governor Gilchrist, who's coming in a little bit later to the game still very early.

I mean, the election's not for another year and a half now, but he's still coming i trying to figure out, okay, name making a name for himself and what he can bring to the table for Michigan.

Is it amazing that you're saying he has to make a name for himself when he's been a heartbeat away from being governor?

I mean, he's been lieutenant governor and he's taken on some independent projects.

I do think that, you know, Whitmer has entrusted hi with leading some initiatives.

He's worked a little bit with small businesses.

He's worked on some diversity issues.

And frankly, I think that, you know, he's he's taken a lot of initiative in that role.

I'm curious about what the Whitmer machine does to help him.

She's not endorsing.

I know.

I know.

But I do think that if you coul tap into that whole apparatus, you'd have some real money on his side.

And that could help wit boosting statewide recognition.

I know that Lieutenant governor is not a a role that necessarily ten out of ten people on the street are going to be able to name.

She showed up in his video twice.

Yeah, well she's going to need to show up a lot more to help him with fundraising.

And that's really, I think, the big thing, where is he going to get his resources from to keep a campaign going?

For now, what, 18 months?

He's going to have to keep on going if he's able to survive the primary.

His polling numbers as he starts out of the gate aren't great.

We did some polling last wee that showed that Jocelyn Benson is way up on him as far as just name I.D.

and just initial thoughts from Democratic voters.

We had her at like 55% and he was at like 14.

So he's got a ways to go.

And you do to Collins point, you got to wonder who he's going to connect with.

He is going to get a lot of support from the African-America community who would like to see the first black governor of Michigan.

That's that would be a grea thing, a great accomplishment.

But outside of the city, Detroit and urban areas, where is he going to go for votes and who is he going to be able to connect with and with what message?

That's the key.

How is he going to connect with people to get them to vote for him and give him money?

And we we just don't know yet.

Despite his desire to be governor, a lot of people were pushing him in other directions, like mayor of Detroit or U.S. Senate.

Garlin Why don't you.

Why don't you go over there and try that?

I mean, I don't think he want.

I think he wanted to be governor.

And I think that he saw himself as being prepared to be governor.

I think he understands.

I think in his mind, he has the ability to do the job of governor.

And to Emily's point, he's been in a lot of the rooms with Governor Whitmer as she's been negotiating some of these things.

Matt Hall says he hasn't.

Well, he'll say he has been you know, he has had initiatives, you know, whether it's education, whether it's technology leading into some of his skill sets.

So I think and ther is I think to a certain extent and this is just me personally speaking, I think there is to a certain extent, a racial component to this as well, where we've seen in general, any time you see a qualified black candidate, you know, I my first thought was sports.

You know, any time you see a black quarterback in the college, in the college sphere for a long time, you saw okay, well, they were very good as quarterback in the college sphere.

But when it comes to going pro, people try to push them to be wide receiver or running back or something else.

So I think some of that may be going on here.

I don't want to say that's everything here.

I mean, it's a crowded field.

There is a million different factors, but I do think that's part of the component.

Just just for the record Matt Hall the Republican speaker said he was not a player.

People in town, obviously on his side would disagree with that.

One of the guys who might be concerned about this candidacy vis a vis Detroit is named Mike Duggan.

Is that a problem for Mike Duggan?

I don't know.

I mean, I truly just don't have the experience or data to vet what an independent run for governor looks like, what the hurdles are.

Does he need votes from Detroit?

Does Duggan need everyone needs votes in Detroit.

Okay, so if Garlin Gilchrist is on and if Garlin Gilchrist is the nominee, I think that's a problem for Mike Duggan.

I mean, it could be.

I would say that, you know, the what you're talking about, about which race should people run for.

Like that's not a specific issue to Garlin Gilchrist.

I think that a lot of peopl are sort of evaluating a couple different options right now since we do have so many prime open seats.

But I think that, you know, in the city of Detroit, certainly Duggan has built up, you know, a lot of lot of track record in the city.

And I think that, you know, some people could be pushed either way on that.

Garlin Gilchrist is obviously invested in the city as well, but I don't see them as being really necessarily directly pitted against each other.

And of course, there's the fact that Garlin has to get through a primary.

And I get your point, though, Tim, and I think that there is some concern on that, because if you do have an independent Detroit candidate who's so, so can votes away from you and you're from Detroit and that's supposed to be your base, then you do have conflicting powers against each other.

But I think his problems before he even gets there in the primary are bigger.

One, he's behind the shadow of the existing governor.

So he does have to take either, you know, in a lot of cases credit.

But he's also got to take flak for what she has done.

So in then, to what extent does he break away from her?

Because he's going to have to do that.

He's going to be his own person in order to run.

And what is that?

What is that going to be?

What does that gimmick we know that lieutenant governors historically in the state have not been successful.

We got to go all the way to Swainson before we can find somebody who is actually able to pull it off.

And that was a long time ag that that may even predate you.

Maybe, maybe, maybe not.

Yeah, exactly.

But he's got to find something, a gimmick or some kind of like inertia to get him there.

If you take a look at the past gubernatorial candidates, you know, Whitmer had the charisma, Granholm had the charisma.

Snyder had the tough nerd gimmick.

You know, what is what is going to connect him with people.

And that's what I'm going to keep falling back on, because that's what you need.

You need that special oomph.

And I just don't know what that is for him yet.

Pete Buttigieg.

Adios.

I was surprised.

Thought he was going to run for governor.

I really did.

Did anybody else?

I never thought that he was going to do it.

I think he was going to run for U.S. Senate.

I thought he was going to run for the U.S. Senate.

Senate.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm definitely in the minority here in thinking that he wasn't going to do it.

And part of this honestly, I just think, is because you have such a crowded field already, you have so many Democrats, high profile Democrats within the state already kicking the tires.

And I think those are folks who are from Michigan who have held office here for a long time.

Meanwhile, Pete Buttigieg while popular on a national scale and popular among Michigan residents, he hasn't lived here as long.

He hasn't held office here in Michigan.

And I think that was going to hit him at some point in the primary campaign.

I thought that, you know, i terms of a US Senate candidacy, perhaps that would be a little bit easier of a sell for someone who hasn't lived in Michigan as long.

You know, you could certainly make the case that he's been in D.C. he has the connections there who could run and represent Michigan there.

So I thought that was in the cards.

But it seems like 2028 is what's really on the cards for him.

Yeah, I would agree.

I think 2028 is in the card and it's kind of weird to think that he'd have a better chance at a president nomination than being the governor of th US Senate candidate in Michigan.

I mean, that's a weird thin to say, but it may be the case.

I mean, his national popularity is through the roof.

Remember, he the votes in Iowa have been counted and he did win that that caucus.

You know, it took them three years to figure it out, but he actually did win that.

And so he's got popularity.

And I think there's people who are anxious to support him on a national level.

And I think as the Democrats sort of figure out what their next tactic is after the 2024 loss, I think there is sort of a moderate strain that he could embody that's gaining some traction within the party.

The reason I thought that the governor thing was a better fit in talking to him privately that got these the twins, okay, They're young kids.

You can you can be governor and still be a father.

Okay.

You can be a father.

I talked to Barack Obama about being a father.

A lot of stuff went on with the girls he had nothing to do with.

And I just thought that family thing and being in Traverse City, you could you know, we're not ignorant here.

You don't you carpetbagger thing might have been played, but I don't think it was a deal closer.

But anyway, I think you're all right.

He obviously runs for president.

All right.

So the governor's got a tariff problem.

Let's take a look at what that is.

President Trump's proposed a 25% tariff on steel is sending shock waves throughout the domestic auto industry.

And therefore, Governor Gretchen Whitmer will be part of an effort in Washington to curtail the tariffs if she can.

She claims Michigan would be hurt.

Worst of all, that's why she's joining the Detroit three automakers who are putting the heat on to stop these tariffs in the nation's capital.

Earlier, the governor laid out the ramifications if this stuff happens in Michigan too long, 25% tariffs on everything would slow down.

Construction shutter Small businesses lead to layoffs in the auto industry, and cost Michigan families an extra 1200 dollars a year at the store and at the pump.

Then this week, the governor called the tariffs, quote, capricious with no long term goal.

Bill Ford from the For family talked with the president on the phone about this issue.

And Ford CEO Jim Farley argues the policy will quote, blow a hole in the U.S. auto industry.

However, the new state Republican Party chair argues the long term impact of tariffs will actually help Michigan.

Yes, it's going to be a little messy early on.

Things are going to come plummeting down again.

He promised that.

He said those exact words.

It is.

Nothing in economics is instantaneous.

These all take time.

There is no economist to see You pull the lever instantly.

Everything in the country changes on that day.

It's that how things work.

If there are eventual layoffs in the auto sector, including assembly lines and suppliers, the trickle down impact at the state capital will be obvious.

Right now, lawmakers are writing the new state budget with the huge tariff cloud hanging over the talks, cutting state services to make up any lost revenue at this rate cannot be ruled out unless, of course, the president is right and that eventually the policies he has will kick start the U.S. economy and lawmakers will have more money to spend rather than less.

And so Kyle who shows up in the Oval Office with one person named Gretchen Whitmer, one on one with the press.

Yeah, that's big.

Yeah.

So that happened on Thursday.

And they did talk about economic development tariffs.

Those are items of concern.

Border security.

So, yeah, I mean, in order to get one on one face time with the governors or the president's a pretty big deal.

That was not on his public schedule.

She did happen to be in town.

But what a difference this is from her first her or her first term in his first term with her four months last December.

She said, I'm going to do this and here she is.

Yeah, it's good tactics on her part.

It's better to be in the ear of the president than combating with him.

I mean, she could be like other Democrats and going to war, but is that really beneficial or is it beneficial to be in his office and talk to him and say, you know what, these tariffs are not going to be helpful for our state and I appreciate what you're doing, but this is going to really hurt our industry and the domestic auto.

So, you know, hats off to her for giving that a try.

And so far she's been successful.

Emily.

I think she's got a lot more wiggle room on something like auto incentives or the Selfridge argument she's making.

You know, those haven' been planks of Trump's platform.

Those are maybe things that he's more movable on.

But when it comes to tariffs, I mean, Trump's been very transparent.

He's locked in on this issue.

He's been very transparen about this on the campaign trail up through now, I guess they're they're on again, off again.

They're going on to differen products in different sectors.

Certainly, it seems like he's trying to land on a mix that everybody's comfortable with.

But I think that for the governor, it's a really hard case to mak that one of his signature issues is something that's hurting Michigan.

Yeah, I mean I kind of agree with Kyle here where, you know, the governor hurt a lot of her national profile came from being kind of this this oppositional figure t the first Trump administration.

But now, I mean, he's threatening funding for a lot of different states.

Michigan depends a lot on states.

I think the number we hear thrown around is $45 billion in the budget or something to that effect.

So you don't want to risk that.

And yes, at this point, I can see why for her it would be bette to have the ear of the president and then to be an adversary of her.

And one of the thing is there's an enormous project in Genesee County that Mundy Township project, a microchip plant that was supposed to get some money from the CHIPS Ac that the president said, Yeah, yeah, that the president said we got to we got to bury.

And so she's got to be in hi ear saying, hey, you know what?

That that Mundy Township plant would be enormous for us.

So if you can just, you know let that one go and maybe expand that open up your mind on it.

That would be great.

All right.

Despite the clip that you saw between the two chairs and you see that show last week, by any chance?

No, I did Runestad and Curtis Hertel.

I want to give these gentlemen credit in this current economic and excuse me, political climate, they conducted themselves, I thought, the best that they could.

They were on their best behavior that could have turned into a jury, a Jerry Springer show, and it didn't.

And given all the stuff that's going on, I think we ought to pat them on the head for doing that.

Rarely do we do that.

But I think in this case, the civility was refreshing.

Speaking about refreshing, let's call in our guest.

Representative, welcome to Off the Record.

I know you've been wanting to do the show for a while.

It's great to have you on board.

So let's cut t the chase.

Is Matt Hall right?

Can we fix the roads without a tax hike?

I think it's you're looking holistically, right?

You can do anything without doing anything.

But all you gotta do is look at how you hold schools harmless, how do you solve that issue?

And you can solve i by diverting sales tax revenue.

But that's just going to create a hole in our general fund.

I think wha we have to be talking about is what do we want our state's infrastructure to look like Long term sustainably?

So do you have to raise taxes to do it?

I think revenue has to be a part of the conversation.

I do.

I think Mr. Hall is right that maybe you could do some of his plan without raising revenue.

We've got to fix roads long term.

You need revenue.

Representative Farhat you've actually introduced bills, the first person in the House to introduce bills to fix the roads long term.

Just give our viewers a littl idea of what you are proposing.

Yeah, you know, I've introduced a number of bills, right?

Last term I introduced the CIT earmark an entire corporate income tax to roads.

Let's just do that.

Right?

That money, we spend it on thes economic development projects.

I just put it to roads.

Things we all can agree on.

Raising corporate income tax.

Let's hold schools harmless.

That should be on the table to consider, too, right?

I think for a long time we've looked at taxing the working class and working families, our state, to fund road solutions.

I think no more.

I don't think my caucus will tolerate that and I don't think I'll tolerate that either.

And another one is digital advertising.

We see these annoying ads all the time.

You know, it's really harmless.

That won't impact anybody here.

But it will impact, the biggest corporation in the world who can pay a little money to our state so we can fund the roads or schools or what we need.

And then recently, I understand that you had a meeting with the governor and a few select legislators.

What happened at that?

Yeah, and I want to say we are really fortunate to have a governor like Gretchen Whitmer here in Michigan.

We are, you know, somebody who's willing to she's really got into the weeds on the roads.

Obviously, she campaigned on fixing the damn roads.

And we have a leader like Speaker Matt Hall right now who wants to get it done.

And I think, you know, as lon as the two are staying engaged and there's legislators like myself at the table, we're going to get this done.

You know, she was very adamant, something she wants to see.

And I think that's something that is refreshing in this climate, is that a leader who just says this is what we need to do, we're going to get there, let's get it done.

You're someone who's bringing new ideas.

The billboard thing is certainly a new idea.

What do you think the biggest pain points are as you look at the legislature?

What's going to hold someone back from voting to fix the roads?

Yeah, you know, I think it's a whole holistic the conversation, right.

You guys mentioned the federal tariffs and the federal funding freeze, Right.

So it's not lost.

I mean, we get briefings once, twice a week sometimes on executive orders that change minute by minute.

You know, half of our budget, 43%, is federal funding.

And so how do you dedicate revenu to the roads without making sure that you're protecting other essential programs people are caring about?

Well, that's a constan conversation that's happening.

And that might be an issue for some folks, is that without federal certainty and certainty on funding a state benefit plans.

How do we divert billions of dollars in roads.

I think we can do both personally, I really do.

When we get into the conversation of writing the state's next budget.

You're the minority vice chair of the House Appropriations Committee.

You're coming from a different point politically than representative Chair Ann Bollin is coming from.

That's coming from a different perspective that Vice chair Matt Maddock is coming from.

So I'm wondering when it comes down to actually talking in these rooms, kind of what's the dynami like between the three of you?

I think, look, where there's alignment, there's alignment.

We all want to see state government be more efficient.

I mean, House Democrats have long stood for in the last two budgets who don't have bipartisan Republicans voted for them to reduc waste, reducing inefficiencies and where there is waste and inefficiencies will partner up to get that done.

We're not afraid to admit that something's a good idea.

I think that's a novel, maybe a novel thing to say, But if there's a good idea, well, admit it.

But think where they go too far is sometimes when they rip out these really big budgets.

You know I think last Thursday, you know, just not seeing at risk funding in that budget, not seeing money for transportation, not seeing money for, you know, school lunches, I mean, just getting dropped on us, you know, stuff like that just throws a huge wrench in the working dynamic.

Definitely between the between myself and others in the caucus.

Well, you're mentioning the continuation budget that was put on the table that that Matt Hall is suggested that we pass now so that by the time we get to September 30, if we can't get a full budget agreement, at least we can keep the lights on.

What's wrong with that idea?

Well, then do a true continuing resolution, Right?

Don't cherry pick what you're going continue or not, right.

Continue the school lunch program, continue bussing for rural school districts, continue at risk funding for which is a been a long bipartisan issue is at ris funding, continue CTE investment What you saw was, you know a resolution that continued some funding.

If you want to make i a real C.R., then you continue all the state funding at current levels through September.

But we don't have to do that.

It's also ridiculous.

Like you said, we have the government funded till September, right?

We're still a ways away.

We could meet three times a week.

I'm in Lansing today.

I'll meet again today.

If they want.

We can get this done.

I firmly believe we can do big things in this state or we don't need to have an insurance policy like you're describing Kyle.

Representative did you know yo were going to be picked as the Democrat vice chair of approps?

You know, it was definitely a surprise to me when I got the tap on the shoulder and said, you've got to come to our press conference.

Speaker want to talk to you.

In fact, the minority leader did not have your name on that list at all.

Correct?

He didn't.

He wanted somebody else.

But we have a great dynamic in the caucus.

What kind of flak did you get from your colleagues for cuddling up to Matt Hall?

Yeah, I would describe it as cuddling up.

I think you look at it, you know, no different than what the governor is doing with Trump, right?

What we're doing is we're working together.

We have to work together to get things done.

In my caucus.

My caucus knows my values when it comes to union priorities and labor, I'm going to be there when it comes to protecting entitlement programs that people in our state count on, whether it's Medicaid or school lunch.

I'm going to be there.

I don't think that, you know, this idea that there is a deal or this is all just what do they call a backroom talk.

This is just, you know, not real.

But.

So did you get any flak?

You know, I think I was a discussion about what to call flak.

Now, what would you call it?

A discussion?

And what do they say?

Can we count on you to b a fighter for us in that room?

I said, yes.

And then we all sang Kumbaya, He said with a smile.

Yeah.

So there were some people tha thought maybe you had sold out.

No, I think some people just wonder how it happened.

I mean, if you see this entire process.

Yeah the whole town wondered.

You showed up at this news conference, You didn't know what was going on.

The speaker did these really you know, you got to give Speaker Hall some credit here.

He knows how to just sensationalize stuff, right, In a great way.

You know, he does these press conferences once a week, which people tune into now all the time.

And, you know, he started off with the approps, then he did Judiciary.

You had all these chairs behind him.

Then he did, you know, I mean, oversight of sweeping subpoena power.

Right.

And so here you have the speaker, you know, really building up this narrative and really kind of engaging with the media in a way I don't think we've seen.

I don't know if you folks have seen this before and it just created this kind of interest, right.

It was kind of a human interest story.

How are these people where they are?

I'll tell you, that' a good question for Matt Hall.

I don't know how people got to where they got to.

Representative I want to go back on funding the road you had mentioned using the corporate income tax money to fund the roads as opposed to economic development programs.

Now, what's your thoughts then on the state using money for economic development programs?

Obviously there's a proposal in your city in Detroit to tear down the ren cen and and do some things there.

So what role does the state hav in economic development programs if you're using that money for roads?

Yeah, look, there's some good economic development tools that we have that don't require cash infusions like SOAR.

We could also look at things like HIRE.

Ohio That's I think the only economic development tool Ohio uses is the equivalent of higher payroll capture.

Right.

We can look at programs like that.

But if we're going to look at, you know, site readiness funds.

We we really have to be, I think, more aggressive in ensuring that these corporations are meeting certain criteria for us as a state.

Right.

You talked about millions o dollars going to site readiness.

And these headlines are brutal if were being honest.

They're brutal headlines.

You know, for a lot of folk and for me, especially watching this, you know, I have th rouge plant in Dearborn, right?

I have Ford's headquarters in Dearborn.

I would love to have ne employers and new manufacturing coming to Dearborn, but they're going to these other rural communities and they're not doin what they're supposed be doing.

Right.

We're not getting th development coming full circle.

And a lot of people are tired of that.

And what you have to see is either much stronger and like a carrot and stick, much stronger incentives, much stronger performance metrics if we're going to keep doing that kind of stuff.

Go ahead.

Representative, It seems like so much of the conversation in recent years has been focused around economic development.

Lately the biggest topic in Lansing has been roads.

I haven't heard a lot about social safety net, housing affordability, things like that.

I'm wondering where does that fit in with this upcoming budget process or do you feel like those things are being deprioritized or de-emphasized right now?

I think there's a big conversation on affordability, right?

I actually commend the Senate Dems on their Rx kids proposal for the statewide.

I think that's one of the greatest proposals we can do.

Right.

We know that, you know, for prenatal and post-natal outcomes, financial assistance is what helps these young couples, these young women actuall be able to have a healthy birth.

I think the Senate Dems took it head on and I commend them for that.

And it's something that I agree with them on.

I'll fight for in the House as well as this Rx kids programs statewide.

So I think affordability is part of it.

But another part of it, you know, the thing about roads is it's such a heel, right?

You know, in the green oom over there, we're talking about how people are getting flat tires, how they're going to the mechanic shop, how and what inconvenience it is.

Right.

Until we fix that problem, that's a chronic problem for people.

And it's also an economic stimulant.

90,000 people are employed by the governors.

$750 million bonding program.

Right.

That 3 billion are bonding for 90,000 people.

Who's your candidate for governor?

Oh, wow.

Hey, that's that's a question for overtime right there.

All right.

You know, I'll make you a deal.

Emily You were one of eight Democrats to vote for a resolution on the House floor today or I'm sorry, this wee that encouraged the high school athletics Association to ba trans girls from girls sports.

Explain that vote.

Yeah, well, just, you know, for me it's issue of fairness, right?

We want to make sure that there's a fair environment for people to compete in.

And, you know, I I'll just be honest.

That's where it comes from for me.

Folks in my district definitely, I think agree with that sentiment.

And, you know, it was a vote.

Now, to the point earlier I would prefer us prioritizing conversations aroun affordability, around housing.

I would prefer those conversations be at the forefront instead of resolutions like this.

But, you know, again, for me, it's an issue of fairness.

And, you know, my district has very strong opinions on this kind of stuff.

Do you think that trans equality is a losing issue for Democrats?

You'd have to expand on that for me.

Because if you're talking civil rights broadly, I think you have to look at discrimination.

And, you know, as somebody who voted for Elliot Larson.

Like we're never going to want to see people discriminated against, period.

That's a winning issue.

Is that saying, hey, folks shouldn't be discriminated against, we shouldn't be prejudiced towards people?

I think, you know I kind of guess the full gamut of what that means, what you're saying there.

But when it comes to, you know, civil liberty, I think that's never a losing issue.

Right.

But I don't kno beyond that we were referring.

So you're looking to draw some lines between civil liberty and like, you know, full participation and other things that may affect other people.

It's fairness.

Yeah, it's a fairness thing, right?

I mean, you see, you know, if a girl's competing biological girl versus even if they're a trans woman, it's just a difficult dynamic for a lot of people to watch that happen.

Representativesince you committed to overtime, let's do it.

Yeah.

All right.

You know what?

The first question.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But first, close credits.

Go to wkar.org for more with the good representative from Dearborn and the Democratic vice chair of approps.

See, on the other side, folks.

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