STATE, AND A QUORUM OF FORMER LAWMAKERS DISSECT THE WEEK IN POLITICS.

>> ERIC: WE START TONIGHT WITH AN ANNIVERSARY THAT WE'LL ALL BE HARD-PRESSED TO FORGET.

FOUR YEARS AGO THIS WEEK, GOVERNOR TIM WALZ ISSUED A "STAY AT HOME" ORDER IN RESPONSE TO THE SPREAD OF COVID-19, EFFECTIVELY SHUTTING DOWN ALL BUT THE MOST ESSENTIAL OPERATIONS IN MINNESOTA.

WHILE MOST OF US HAVE NOW RETURNED TO OUR PRE-PANDEMIC WAYS, THE CONSTANTLY EVOLVING VIRUS IS STILL VERY MUCH WITH US.

WE'VE BEEN CHECKING IN WITH MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA, THROUGHOUT THESE FOUR STRANGE YEARS, AND HE JOINS US NOW VIA ZOOM JUST LIKE HE DID DURING THE PANDEMIC.

DOCTOR, I WANT TO GET IGHT TO THIS, IN HINDSIGHT, I'M WONDERING IF THE STEPS THAT WERE TAKEN, THE MASKS, THE SHUTDOWN OF THE SCHOOLS, SHUTDOWN OF BUSINESSES, SIX FEET APART, WASH YOUR HANDS, WAS THAT ALL NECESSARY?

WAS THAT GOVERNMENT OVERREACH OR SOMETHING ELSE?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, DURING THE FOUR YEARS OF A PANDEMIC, JUST AS YOU'VE SEEN ON THIS SHOW, AS I'VE APPEARED SO MANY TIMES, WE WERE CONTINUING TO LEARN THROUGHOUT THAT ENTIRETY OF THE PANDEMIC AS TO WHAT WE NEEDED TO DO AND HOW WE NEEDED TO DO IT.

I THINK THE ONE CHALLENGE THAT I HAVE HAD THROUGHOUT THE PANDEMIC AND I'VE SURELY SHARED THAT ON THIS SHOW IS THE FACT THAT WE WERE IN THIS FOR THE LONG HAUL.

AND, UNFORTUNATELY, MANY PEOPLE APPROACHED THIS BACK IN MARCH OF 2020 LIKE THIS WAS GOING TO BASICALLY E A - BLIZZARD.

THIS WAS GOING TO BE A HURRICANE.

IT WOULD BE OVER WITH IN A FEW WEEKS, AT MOST, AND THEN WE COULD MOVE ON.

AND, AS YOU KNOW, I SAW THIS LASTING MULTIPLE YEARS, AND, IN FACT, PREDICTED THAT WE WOULD SEE 800,000 DEATHS, POTENTIALLY, IN THE FIRST 18 MONTHS, WHICH IT ACTUALLY DID JUST THAT.

HAD WE COME INTO THIS WITH A MINDSET TO SAY, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SURVIVE THIS FOR TWO TO THREE, MAYBE FOUR YEARS, I THINK WE WOULD HAVE DONE A NUMBER OF THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S HINDSIGHT.

BUT I THINK IT'S ALSO SOMETHING WE NEED TO KEEP IN MIND BECAUSE HERE WILL BE ANOTHER PANDEMIC, AND IT COULD BE MUCH WORSE THAN THIS ONE.

>> Cathy: I KNOW YOU WERE CALLING FOR A COVID COMMISSION, SIMILAR TO, SAY, THE 9/11 COMMISSION, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT?

>> WELL, I THINK IT GOES TO THE VERY HEART OF ERIC'S QUESTION ABOUT ALMOST, YOU KNOW, WHAT WENT WRONG.

AND MY TAKE ON THAT IS NOT SO MUCH WENT WRONG, WHAT DID WE LEARN DURING THE ENTIRETY OF THE PANDEMIC THAT COULD BETTER PREPARE US FOR THE FUTURE.

AND IF WE DON'T DO THAT, WE'RE DOOMED TO REPEAT MANY OF THE ERRORS OR THE MISTAKES THAT WERE MADE WITH THIS PANDEMIC.

AND THERE WERE SOME.

THERE WERE SOME MAJOR ONES.

AND I THINK THAT THAT'S WHERE WE AND PUBLIC HEALTH HAVE TO HAVE A DEEP SENSE OF HUMILITY RIGHT NOW AND ALONG WITH PARTNERS THROUGHOUT ALL SOCIETY, NOT JUST PUBLIC HEALTH BUT EDUCATION, GOVERNMENT, HEALTHCARE, I CAN GO THROUGH THE LAUNDRY LIST, NEED TO REALLY SIT DOWN AND SAY, WE'RE NOT HERE TO POINT FINGERS, BUT WHAT WENT RIGHT AND WHAT WENT WRONG.

WHAT COULD WE LEARN FROM THAT?

AND I THINK THAT'S THE CHALLENGE WE HAVE RIGHT NOW, AND THERE'S NO APPETITE FOR DOING THAT.

AND, SO, WE'RE GOING TO MISS A MAJOR OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE OURSELVES BETTER PREPARED FOR THE FUTURE.

>> Cathy: YOU MENTIONED THERE WERE A NUMBER OF BIG ERRORS.

JUST NAME THE ONE THAT COMES TO MIND RIGHT NOW.

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I HATE THE CONCEPT OF MASKING.

OKAY.

AND I SAY THAT NOT BECAUSE I DON'T THINK RESPIRATORY PROTECTION IS IMPORTANT, BUT BECAUSE PEOPLE MISUNDERSTOOD, AND IT WAS LARGELY DUE TO PUBLIC HEALTH'S PROBLEM, WE DID NOT CONVEY TO THE PUBLIC THAT YOU HAVE TO WEAR THESE TIGHT-FIT FACE-FITTING N 95 RESPIRATORS TO REALLY PROTECT YOURSELF, IF YOU WEAR A SURGICAL MASK, BANDANA, IT MAY HAVE MADE YOU FEEL GOOD, BUT THE VIRUS WOULD LEAK IN OR LEAK OUT IF YOU WERE INFECTED WITH THOSE.

SO EVEN 0 TO THIS DAY, I SEE MANY MANY PEOPLE IN MANY HEALTHCARE SYSTEMS IN THIS COUNTRY WHERE THEY'RE STILL WEARING SURGICAL MASKS.

WELL, THAT DOESN'T HAVE A TIGHT SEAL AROUND IT, AND THE VIRUS LEAKS IN AND OUT.

AND, SO, THERE WAS ONE RIGHT THERE WHERE WE HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO TO STILL, YET, EDUCATE PUBLIC HEALTH AND MEDICINE SO THAT THE PUBLIC ITSELF WILL E BETTER PREPARED IN THE FUTURE.

THAT'S A GLARING ONE RIGHT THERE.

>> Eric: FOR THOSE OUT THERE WHO WERE SAYING THE VACCINES DID MORE HARM THAN GOOD, WHAT SAY YOU?

>> ABSOLUTELY, THAT'S NOT TRUE.

THESE ARE GOOD VACCINES, THEY'RE NOT GREAT VACCINES.

AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT S, IS THAT IT'S CLEAR THAT YOU BUY FOUR, MAYBE SIX MONTHS OF PROTECTION AGAINST SERIOUS ILLNESS, HOSPITALIZATIONS AND DEATHS, AND PARTICULARLY FOR THE OLDER POPULATION THAT IS A CRITICAL GIFT TO HAVE THAT.

I WISH I HAD A VACCINE, YOU GIVE IT ONCE OR TWICE AND YOU'RE DONE.

I THINK RIGHT NOW WE'RE IN A STATE WHERE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GIVE THIS VACCINE LIKELY EVERY SIX MONTHS, PARTICULARLY FOR THOSE AT INCREASED RISK FOR DEATH, LARGELY THOSE OVER AGE 65 OR HAVE IMMUNE-COMPROMISING CONDITIONS UNDER AGE 65.

WE'RE STILL SEEING 5,400 DEATHS IN THIS COUNTRY EVERY WEEK.

YOU KNOW, HAT'S SURELY DOWN FROM EVEN JUST LAST JANUARY.

BUT WE STILL HAVE A REALLY -- AN OPPORTUNITY HERE TO CUT THOSE NUMBERS OF DEATHS DOWN IF MORE AND MORE PEOPLE WOULD JUST GET THESE DOSES, PARTICULARLY IN THE HIGH-RISK, OVER AGE 65 EVERY SIX MONTHS.

>> Cathy: IT'S ALMOST AS IF, THOUGH, THAT COVID IS OUT OF SIGHT, OUT OF MIND, RIGHT?

I MEAN, NO ONE'S EVEN TALKING ABOUT IT.

WHAT'S THE STATE OF THE VIRUS AND THE VARIANTS AT THIS POINT?

>> WELL, ACTUALLY, IT'S INTERESTING, CATHY, BECAUSE, REALLY, TWO THINGS THAT HAPPENED TOGETHER.

ONE IS THE VARIANTS THEMSELVES CHANGE.

SO THE VIRUS S CONSTANTLY MUTATING IN WAYS THAT CAN HELP IT EVADE PREVIOUS PROTECTION OR FROM VACCINATION.

BUT, ALSO, AT THE SAME TIME, WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS THE WAYNEING IMMUNITY IN PEOPLE, MEANING THAT, YOU KNOW, THE DOSE OF VACCINE DOES GREAT WORK THE FIRST MONTHS BUT DOES LESS AND LESS AFTER THAT.

WHAT MY CONCERN IS, OVER TIME, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE MORE AND MORE PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO ENTER THAT WINDOW OF NO LONGER BEING PROTECTED OVERLAID WITH, ONGOING VARIANT ACTIVITY OUT THERE.

WE'RE NOT DONE WITH THIS YET.

NOW, DO I THINK IT'S EVER GOING TO GO BACK TO WHAT IT WAS LIKE IN 2020 OR 2021?

NO, NOT AT ALL.

BUT WE ARE STILL GOING TO SEE A LOT OF ILLNESS OUT THERE, I'M AFRAID.

>> Cathy: ALWAYS A PLEASURE HAVING YOU HERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Eric: THANKS.

>> THANK