>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO In FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Laura: OUR LAND BRINGS YOU A SPECIAL LOOK INTO NEW MEXICO'S NUCLEAR UNDERGROUND WITH FORMER NEW MEXICO STATE REPRESENTATIVE JOHN HEATON, DR. MYRRIAH GÓMEZ FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO, AND STATE SENATOR JEFF STEINBORN.

>> Laura: TONIGHT WE SHARE A SPECIAL ABOUT PLANS TO BRING HIGH-LEVEL NUCLEAR WASTE TO NEW MEXICO.

HI.

I'M LAURA PASKUS, SENIOR PRODUCER OF OUR LAND.

EARLIER THIS YEAR, THE U.S. NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION ISSUED A 40-YEAR LICENSE TO HOLTEC INTERNATIONAL.

THE COMPANY PLANS TO BUILD AN INTERIM STORAGE FACILITY BETWEEN HOBBS AND CARLSBAD.

THE WASTE WOULD COME FROM POWER PLANTS THAT HOLTEC, A PRIVATE COMPANY, IS DECOMMISSIONING ELSEWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

OF COURSE, NEW MEXICO HAS A LONG HISTORY WITH THE U.S. GOVERNMENT'S NUCLEAR WEAPONS PROGRAM AND ITS WASTE.

WHAT HOLTEC IS PLANNING IS DIFFERENT.

AND TO UNDERSTAND WE NEED TO LOOK BACK A FEW DECADES.

IN 1982, CONGRESS PASSED THE NUCLEAR WASTE POLICY ACT.

THAT LAW WAS SUPPOSED TO CREATE A NATIONAL PROGRAM TO SAFELY AND PERMANENTLY DISPOSE OF RADIOACTIVE WASTE.

IN 1987, CONGRESS NAMED NEVADA'S YUCCA MOUNTAIN AS THE PERMANENT REPOSITORY.

THE U.S. GOVERNMENT SPENT MORE THAN 30 YEARS AND ABOUT $15 BILLION PLANNING THAT REPOSITORY WHILE BATTLING WITH NEVADA, WHICH DID NOT WANT THE WASTE.

IT WASN'T UNTIL TWO YEARS AGO THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION FINALLY TOOK YUCCA MOUNTAIN OFF THE TABLE.

BUT OF COURSE, THE SPENT FUEL HASN'T JUST DISAPPEARED.

TODAY THERE'S NUCLEAR WASTE IN 39 STATES.

SOME IS FROM WEAPONS, BUT MOST IS FROM POWER PLANTS.

IN FACT, IN THE U.S., THERE'S ABOUT 97,000 TONS OF RADIOACTIVE WASTE FROM NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS.

AND STILL NO SAFE, PERMANENT PLACE TO PUT IT, OR COMMUNITY THAT WANTS IT, AND THAT'S WHERE A THOUSAND ACRE PLOT OF LAND IN SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO COMES INTO THE PICTURE.

TONIGHT YOU'LL HEAR FROM JOHN HEATON.

A FORMER NEW MEXICO STATE REPRESENTATIVE AND CHAIR OF THE EDDY-LEA ENERGY ALLIANCE.

THAT'S A LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY OWNED BY THE CITIES OF CARLSBAD AND HOBBS, AND EDDY AND LEA COUNTIES.

THE GROUP FORMED IN 2006 TO BID ON A PROPOSED FEDERAL PROJECT.

THE ALLIANCE ALSO BOUGHT A THOUSAND ACRES OF LAND BETWEEN HOBBS AND CARLSBAD.

AFTER THAT FEDERAL PROPOSAL FELL THROUGH, THE ALLIANCE RECRUITED HOLTEC TO NEW MEXICO.

THE TWO SIGNED AN AGREEMENT, AND IN 2017, HOLTEC APPLIED TO THE NRC TO BUILD AN INTERIM STORAGE SITE ON THE ALLIANCE'S LAND.

HOLTEC ALSO AGREED IT WOULD BUY THE LAND IF THE NRC APPROVED THE LICENSE.

IN THIS FIRST SEGMENT, JOHN HEATON, WHO'S LISTED AS A MEMBER OF HOLTEC'S LEADERSHIP TEAM, TALKS ABOUT WHY HE BELIEVES BRINGING SPENT FUEL TO SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO IS SAFE AND WHY IT MAKES SENSE.

>> Laura: JOHN HEATON, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> Heaton: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

I'M PLEASED TO BE HERE.

>> Laura: SO YOU'VE BEEN AN ADVOCATE IN THE PAST FOR WIPP AND ITS EXPANSION, ADVOCATE FOR THE PROPOSED FUEL REPROCESSING FACILITY ALMOST 20 YEARS AGO, AND NOW HOLTEC.

WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THAT NUCLEAR WASTE IS A BOON FOR SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO?

>> Heaton: WELL, I'M NOT SURE I WOULD CALL IT WASTE.

ONLY 5% PERCENT OF IT IS USED UP, AND EVENTUALLY I BELIEVE THAT THAT SPENT FUEL THAT'S REMAINING WILL BE USED IN ADVANCED REACTORS.

SO I WOULDN'T REFER TO IT AS WASTE AT ALL.

IT HAS A LOT OF ENERGY STILL LEFT IN IT.

BUT THE PROCESS OF WHAT WE'RE DOING IS ATTEMPTING TO SET UP AN INTERIM STORAGE FACILITY IN OUR PART OF THE STATE, AND THAT INTERIM STORAGE FACILITY WILL MANAGE MOST OF THE SPENT FUEL -- OR CAN MANAGE MOST OF THE SPENT FUEL FOR THE NEXT NUMBER OF YEARS.

RIGHT NOW, THERE'S SOME 90,000 TONS OF SPENT FUEL THAT'S AT VARIOUS LOCATIONS IN THE COUNTRY, AND THAT WILL GROW AT 2000 TONS A YEAR.

SO EVENTUALLY THIS PROJECT, WHICH WILL ONLY START OFF WITH 500 SILOS, WILL END UP -- CAN END UP WITH AS MANY AS A 1000, OR 10,000.

SO THAT'S THE PROJECT.

>> Laura: WE KNOW THAT THE YUCCA MOUNTAIN BATTLE WENT ON FROM THE 1980s AND STILL SORT OF COMES UP EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE, BUT WENT ON FOR DECADES.

NOBODY SEEMS TO WANT A PERMANENT REPOSITORY IN THEIR STATE.

OFTEN COMMUNITIES DON'T WANT EVEN AN INTERIM STORAGE.

THE NRC JUST GRANTED THIS LICENSE TO HOLTEC FOR 40 YEARS, BUT WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT 40 YEARS?

WHERE IS THAT WASTE GOING TO GO?

ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING THE FUEL REPROCESSING IS STILL VERY MUCH A FUTURE TECHNOLOGY, IT SOUNDS LIKE.

>> Heaton: THEY WILL BE ABLE TO REAPPLY FOR ANOTHER 40 YEARS, AND IF THEY'RE ABLE TO DO ANOTHER ONE AFTER THAT, IT DEPENDS ON WHAT THE RESEARCH SHOWS REGARDING LONG-TERM STORAGE.

NOW, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE SPENT FUEL AND WHAT'S ACTUALLY IN IT, WHICH I DON'T THINK PEOPLE REALLY GRASP AND UNDERSTAND.

BUT THERE ARE WHAT ARE CALLED FISSION MATERIALS, AND TWO OF THOSE FISSION MATERIALS -- ONE IS CESIUM AND ONE IS STRONTIUM.

AND STRONTIUM AND CESIUM ARE BOTH GAMMA EMITTERS.

AND SO GAMMA IS VERY SIMILAR TO X-RAY, IN THAT IT HAS SIGNIFICANT PENETRATING CAPABILITY.

THAT'S WHY THE FACILITY IS BUILT THE WAY IT IS, IN A CONCRETE STRUCTURE.

AND WE THINK THAT BEING SUBSURFACE GIVES US AN EXTRA AMOUNT OF PROTECTION.

BUT THE CESIUM AND STRONTIUM, THE HEAT PRODUCING AND RADIATION PRODUCING PRODUCTS, ONLY HAVE A 30 YEAR HALF-LIFE.

SO IF YOU THINK OF THAT HALF-LIFE, THAT MEANS THAT AFTER 100 YEARS, THERE'S ONLY 10% OF THAT LEFT, AND MANY OF THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN STORED FOR, YOU KNOW, 20, 25, 30 YEARS.

SO IT'S ALREADY GONE THROUGH ONE DEGRADATION OF HALF-LIFE.

AND THE THING THAT PEOPLE BRING UP SO OFTEN IS, WELL, WHAT ABOUT THE PLUTONIUM?

THE PLUTONIUM IS ONLY AN ALPHA EMITTER, AND I THINK PEOPLE HAVE A HARD TIME UNDERSTANDING THAT, BECAUSE PLUTONIUM WAS ALSO THE TRIGGERING DEVICE IN THE BOMB.

BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF SIGNIFICANT CONDITIONS THAT HAVE TO EXIST FOR PLUTONIUM TO BE FISSILE.

SO BEING ONLY AN ALPHA EMITTER MEANS THAT PLUTONIUM IS STOPPED BY CLOTHING, IT'S STOPPED BY YOUR SKIN, IT'S STOPPED BY PAPER.

IT ONLY TRAVELS A VERY SHORT DISTANCE AND HAS VERY LOW ENERGY.

BASICALLY, ONCE THE HEAT AND GAMMA EMITTING KIND OF RADIATION HAS DETERIORATED, THE REALITY IS YOU COULD KEEP THE PLUTONIUM IN A CARDBOARD BOX AND IT WOULD BE PERFECTLY SAFE IN THAT WAY.

SO I THINK THAT THIS HAS BEEN OVERDONE AND THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF HYPERBOLE BY THE SPONSOR OF SENATE BILL 53.

HE'S SAID SO MANY ERRONEOUS THINGS AND MISREPRESENTED THE REALITY AND THE FACTS, IT IS REALLY UNBELIEVABLE THAT PEOPLE IN THE NEW MEXICO LEGISLATURE COULD ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT.

BUT ANYWAY, I WON'T GO ON ABOUT THAT.

I'M JUST TELLING YOU THAT IT DOES HAVE A DECAY PROCESS THAT ULTIMATELY MEANS THAT THOSE LONG LIVE ACTINIDES COULD BE KEPT VERY SECURE IN A STORAGE SYSTEM LIKE THIS.

AND I KNOW THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE SAYING, WELL, WE DON'T WANT THIS TO BE A LONG-TERM STORAGE, WHICH MEANS IT, IN ITSELF, MAY BE A REPOSITORY.

THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

THE NUCLEAR WASTE POLICY ACT MANDATES THAT THERE BE A REPOSITORY, AND IT'S UP TO CONGRESS TO GET OFF THEIR BOTTOMS AND FIND A REPOSITORY SITE AND DO IT.

RIGHT NOW, SECRETARY HUFF, WHO IS IN CHARGE OF THE NUCLEAR ENERGY COMPONENT OF DOE, IS NOW VERY URGENTLY LOOKING FOR A SITE ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> Laura: AND DON'T YOU THINK THAT THEY'LL JUST THINK NEW MEXICO IS THE PLACE?

I MEAN, FOR 40 YEARS THE YUCCA MOUNTAIN BATTLE WENT ON.

IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE ANYBODY ELSE IS GOING TO WANT THIS WASTE.

SO IT FEELS LIKE IF IT COMES HERE, IT REALLY DOES FEEL LIKE IT COULD GET STUCK HERE.

>> Heaton: WELL, THERE ARE OTHER PLACES IN THE COUNTRY THAT MAY POSSIBLY STEP UP THAT HAVE SUITABLE SITES.

AS I'M SURE YOU KNOW, THEY PUT OUT AN RFP FOR VARIOUS ORGANIZATIONS TO APPLY TO FIND A SITE.

AND SO THERE WERE 13 OF THEM THAT DID APPLY AND THAT WERE AWARDED A $2 MILLION GRANT TO BEGIN THE EXPLORATION OF FINDING SITES.

MOST OF THESE 13 WERE UNIVERSITY-BASED SYSTEMS.

IN FACT, IN NEW MEXICO, UNM IS PART OF ONE OF THOSE.

BUT THE IDEA IS THAT THEN THEY WILL BEGIN TO EXPLORE IN THE COUNTRY TO TRY TO FIND -- I WOULD SUGGEST IT WOULD START WITH COMMUNITIES AND SMALL REGIONS THAT ARE WILLING TO ACCEPT AND UNDERSTAND WHAT A REPOSITORY REALLY MEANS.

I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY IN NEW MEXICO THE WIPP PROJECT HAS BEEN HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL, AND IT'S A NATIONAL TREASURE TO GET RID OF THE COLD WAR WASTES THAT ARE OUT THERE, THE TRANSURANIC WASTES THAT ARE OUT THERE.

AND SO IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT FACILITY FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE.

BUT I THINK OTHERS WILL LEARN AND GET EDUCATED ABOUT IT LIKE WE IN THE CARLSBAD AREA BECAME EDUCATED ABOUT WIPP, AND THROUGH THE EDUCATION OF THE SCIENTISTS AT SANDIA NATIONAL LABORATORY AND HAVING VERY FREQUENT MEETINGS, WE BEGAN TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE RISKS WERE AND WEREN'T, AND WHAT THE PROPERTIES OF THE REPOSITORY REALLY ARE AND HOW ROBUST THAT SALT REALLY IS IN TERMS OF CONTAINING MATERIAL OF THIS NATURE.

IN FACT, WHEN WIPP FIRST BEGAN, IT WAS ORIGINALLY THOUGHT THAT IT WOULD BE A HIGH-LEVEL WASTE REPOSITORY AS WELL AS TRANSURANIC, AND THEN IN 1987 THAT CHANGED AND YUCCA MOUNTAIN BECAME THE CHOSEN SITE, AND THEN WIPP WAS CONVERTED INTO A TRANSURANIC WASTE REPOSITORY.

>> Laura: SO I JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY THAT RFP THAT YOU MENTIONED, THE 13 APPLICANTS AND THE $2 MILLION.

THOSE ARE INSTITUTIONS OR ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE LOOKING FOR PLACES, THEY'RE NOT LIKE COMMUNITIES OR STATES THAT ARE SAYING THAT THEY WOULD LIKE THEM?

>> Heaton: NO, THEY ARE A PARTICIPANT IN WHAT IS CALLED A CONSENT BASED SITING PROCESS.

SO IT'S THEIR CHARGE TO GO FIND COMMUNITIES AND REGIONS THAT ARE ACCEPTABLE, THAT WOULD HAVE THE RIGHT KIND OF GEOLOGY, STRATIGRAPHY, FOR A REPOSITORY, AND THEN THEY WOULD THEN MOVE THROUGH A PROCESS WITH THE STATE OR WHOEVER THE STATE SEEMS TO THINK THEY NEED APPROVAL FROM.

>> Laura: THE WASHINGTON POST HAD A STORY LAST YEAR ABOUT HOLTEC'S SAFETY VIOLATIONS AT NEW JERSEY'S OYSTER CREEK DECOMMISSIONING.

ALONG WITH THOSE SAFETY VIOLATIONS, THAT STORY ALSO TALKS ABOUT HOW DECOMMISSIONING IS AN UNPROVEN BUSINESS WITH UNCERTAIN PROFITS, AND THE NRC'S FORMER HEAD CALLED IT A GAMBLE.

DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT THIS IS A GAMBLE THAT NEW MEXICO AND CARLSBAD AND HOBBS CAN AFFORD?

>> Heaton: I DON'T THINK IT'S A GAMBLE AT ALL.

I THINK THAT THERE IS A HUGE AMOUNT OF SPENT FUEL OUT THERE THAT NEEDS TO BE MOVED.

AS I SAID, THERE ARE PLACES THAT ARE ON OCEAN FRONTS THAT ARE SEISMICALLY ACTIVE, THERE ARE OTHER SEISMICALLY ACTIVE PLACES IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THERE ARE SOME FACILITIES THAT HAVE RUN OUT OF STORAGE CAPABILITY AT THEIR SITES AND THEY NEED THIS KIND OF FACILITY.

SO WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT A GAMBLE, IT'S NOT A GAMBLE AT ALL.

IT'S A MUCH NEEDED PROPOSITION FOR THE COUNTRY.

>> Laura: DO YOU THINK IT'S FAIR THAT THESE STATES AND OTHER REGIONS, YOU KNOW, BENEFITED ECONOMICALLY FOR DECADES FROM NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS, AND NOW THEY HAVE THE SPENT FUEL THAT THEY WANT TO GET RID OF, THAT THEY DON'T WANT -- YOU KNOW, STATES LIKE NEW YORK ARE FIGHTING AGAINST ANY OF IT STAYING THERE -- AND THEN THEY GET TO HAVE THESE GREEN USABLE SPACES WHILE NEW MEXICO HAS NUCLEAR WASTE?

>> Heaton: IN NEW MEXICO, WE THINK THAT WE DON'T HAVE A SPENT FUEL PROBLEM IN NEW MEXICO, BUT THE REALITY IS THAT PNM GETS ABOUT 11% OF THEIR POWER FROM PALO VERDE, WHICH IS A NUCLEAR POWER PLANT.

AND DONA ANA COUNTY, INCLUDING LAS CRUCES, GET THEIR POWER FROM EL PASO ELECTRIC, AND EL PASO ELECTRIC GETS ABOUT 46% OF THEIR POWER FROM PALO VERDE.

SO THIS IDEA THAT NEW MEXICO DOESN'T HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY OF ANY SORT BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A NUCLEAR POWER PLANT, THAT MAY BE SO, BUT THE REALITY IS THAT WE ARE GETTING NUCLEAR POWER FROM PALO VERDE AND ARIZONA.

SO WE'RE NOT SQUEAKY CLEAN LIKE ALL THESE PEOPLE WANT TO SAY ABOUT THE NUCLEAR POWER.

SO WE ARE USING NUCLEAR POWER, AND UNFORTUNATELY, NEW MEXICO SOMETIMES IS MUCH, I GUESS, LIKE YOU WOULD THINK ABOUT A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY.

THEY DON'T THINK ABOUT THE FUTURE IN A BIG WAY THAT WE SHOULD ALL BE THINKING ABOUT IT, TO CREATE MORE JOBS, TO CREATE MORE INDUSTRY, THAT HELPS THIS STATE GROW AND BECOME AN IMPORTANT STATE IN TERMS OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN THE COUNTRY.

BUT THE REALITY IS THAT IT'S A TRAGEDY THAT THIS KIND OF A PROJECT, WHICH WILL DIVERSIFY OUR ECONOMY IN SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO, CREATE 650 JOBS, PROVIDE A CAPITAL INVESTMENT IN OUR AREA OF $2 BILLION TO $3 BILLION, BRING A MANUFACTURING CENTER, BRING A TRAINING CENTER FOR THEIR WORLDWIDE SYSTEM THAT THEY PRESENTLY ARE DEVELOPING IN OTHER COUNTRIES, BRINGING THOSE PEOPLE HERE SO THAT THEY CAN GET TRAINED ON THE SYSTEMS.

I MEAN, THIS IS WHAT WE'RE REALLY MISSING BY NOT BRINGING THEM TO OUR STATE AND TO OUR PART OF THE STATE.

WE WANT TO DIVERSIFY WHERE WE ARE.

NOBODY HELPS US, AND THEY DON'T -- NOBODY HELPS ANY RURAL COMMUNITY.

WHATEVER THEY DO, THEY HAVE TO DO ON THEIR OWN.

AND THIS IS A NICHE THAT WE'VE FOUND, AND SO WE'RE LOOKING FOR SAFE PROJECTS.

AND YOU COULDN'T FIND A MORE PASSIVE PROJECT THAN THIS.

>> Laura: WE'LL HEAR MORE FROM JOHN HEATON LATER IN THE SHOW.

FIRST, HERE'S UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO PROFESSOR MYRRIAH GÓMEZ.

DR. GÓMEZ IS THE AUTHOR OF "NUCLEAR NUEVO MÉXICO: COLONIALISM AND THE EFFECTS OF THE NUCLEAR INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX ON NUEVOMEXICANOS."

WE TALK ABOUT HER WORK AND ABOUT HOLTEC'S CONSOLIDATED INTERIM STORAGE FACILITY, OR CISF.

>> Laura: DR. MYRRIAH GOMEZ, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> Dr. Gomez: THANK YOU SO MUCH, LAURA, FOR HAVING ME.

>> Laura: SO LET'S START WITH SOME OF THE THEMES IN YOUR BOOK.

IN PARTICULAR, NUCLEAR COLONIALISM.

WHAT IS THAT, AND HOW HAS NEW MEXICO, AS YOU WRITE, BEEN SHAPED AND UNSHAPED BY IT?

>> Dr. Gomez: SO NUCLEAR COLONIALISM REALLY COMES IN AS THE THIRD MAJOR SETTLER PERIOD OF SETTLER COLONIALISM IN NEW MEXICO.

AND I THINK THAT THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO GROUND THAT DEFINITION, THIS DEFINITION, WITH THOSE TWO EARLIER PERIODS, BECAUSE ESSENTIALLY WHAT HAPPENS IS -- NUEVO MÉXICO ISN'T JUST A CATCHY TITLE.

IT'S NOT JUST -- NUCLEAR NUEVO MÉXICO ISN'T JUST AN ALLITERATION.

NUEVO MÉXICO, AND/OR PRECEDING LA NUEVA MEXICO, WAS ACTUALLY PART OF THE IMPETUS FOR THE SETTLER COLONIALISM.

SO IN THE 1500S WHEN THE SPANISH CAME AND ORIGINALLY COLONIZED THESE LANDS, THEY SAW IT AS LAND FOR THE TAKING, AND THERE WERE ALREADY INHABITANTS HERE.

AND SO THOSE KIND OF TWO MAJOR KEY POINTS REALLY SET THE STAGE FOR LATER PERIODS OF SETTLER COLONIALISM.

WE SEE THIS AGAIN WITH THE U.S.-MEXICO WAR IN 1846 WITH MANIFEST DESTINY AND THE BELIEF IN THE GOD GIVEN OPPORTUNITY TO EXPAND WESTWARD.

SO WHAT ESSENTIALLY HAPPENS WITH NUCLEAR COLONIALISM IS -- AND WE SEE THIS WITH THE NEW OPPENHEIMER FILM, WHERE OPPENHEIMER AND GROVES WERE KIND OF THE NEW COLONISTS AND THEY SAW NEW MEXICO, AND THE WORLD NOW HAS SEEN NEW MEXICO AS KIND OF THIS EMPTY WESTERN, VERY WESTERN, ESTHETICALLY EMPTY, UNINHABITED AND UNINHABITABLE PLACE WHERE THE NUCLEAR INDUSTRY CAN BEGIN AND THE NUCLEAR MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX CAN BEGIN.

AND SO NUCLEAR COLONIALISM IS THE THIRD MAJOR PERIOD OF SETTLER COLONIALISM IN NEW MEXICO, AND NEW MEXICO HAS BEEN SHAPED BY THIS BECAUSE IN THE 1940s, WHEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT STARTED THE MANHATTAN PROJECT, LOS ALAMOS AND NORTHERN NEW MEXICO WAS SITED FOR PROJECT Y, OR SITE Y OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT.

IT DIDN'T STOP THERE.

WE SAW THE TRINITY SITE BECOME ANOTHER VERY IMPORTANT PART OF THAT MANHATTAN PROJECT, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW THAT THE TRINITY SITE AND LOS ALAMOS, THE PAJARITO PLATEAU, ARE OVER 200 MILES APART.

SO EACH HAD A CERTAIN SET OF STIPULATIONS THAT NEEDED TO BE MET IN ORDER TO CONDUCT THE SCIENCE THAT NEEDED TO BE CONDUCTED AT THOSE SPECIFIC SITES, AND YOU KNOW, AS I'VE ARGUED, LOS ALAMOS DIDN'T ACTUALLY MEET THOSE SITES.

SO FOR THOSE REASONS, NEW MEXICO IS SHAPED, AND THEN IT EVOLVES OVER AN 80 YEAR PERIOD, NEW MEXICO IS SHAPED BY NUCLEAR COLONIALISM.

BUT THEN WE LOOK AT THE EFFECTS AND WHAT THAT SCIENCE AND WHAT THAT INDUSTRY HAS DONE TO, AND THE IMPACT IT'S HAD ON COMMUNITIES ACROSS NEW MEXICO, TO EVERY CORNER AND EVERY REGION, AND THAT'S HOW NEW MEXICO HAS BEEN MISSHAPED OR MISSHAPEN BY NUCLEAR COLONIALISM.

>> Laura: SO FOCUSING SPECIFICALLY ON COMMERCIAL NUCLEAR WASTE, WHICH IS A NEW WAVE FOR NEW MEXICO, WHERE DO HOLTEC'S PLANS FIT INTO THE ANALYSIS THAT YOU'VE BEEN DOING OVER THE YEARS?

>> Dr. Gomez: SO I THINK THAT THE HOLTEC PLAN FITS INTO THE ANALYSIS OF NUCLEAR COLONIALISM BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT HOLTEC HAS, ONE, TARGETED NEW MEXICO.

SECONDLY, THE WAYS THAT THEY HAVE MARKETED THE CISF.

AND NOW FINALLY, THE WAYS THAT THEY'VE OVERLOOKED OR DID NOT INCLUDE OR, YOU KNOW, CONSCIOUSLY OMITTED THE POPULATIONS LIVING IN THOSE COMMUNITIES.

AND I'M NOT TALKING THE LAWMAKERS, RIGHT.

THE LAWMAKERS EXCLUDED THE POPULATIONS THAT ARE OVER 60% PEOPLE OF COLOR FROM THESE PROCEEDINGS AND THESE PROCEDURES.

SOME OF THEM ACTUALLY HAPPENED DURING COVID, WHICH IS JUST UNCONSCIONABLE THAT THEY COULD HAVE ALL OF THESE HEARINGS ONLINE WHEN SOME PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE ONLINE ACCESS, ETC., ETC.

AND SO THE FACT THAT WE ARE PLANNING -- THE FACT THAT THE NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION HAS NOW LICENSED THE HOLTEC FACILITY AND THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO HAS PASSED A LAW, SENATE BILL 53, WHICH PASSED IN THE 2023 LEGISLATURE, OUTLAWING THE CISF TO BE BUILT IN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO, WE ARE GOING TO SEE A MAJOR PRECEDENT SETTING CASE HERE, BECAUSE IT'S, AGAIN, ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF FEDERAL VERSUS STATE JURISDICTION.

AND IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, THE TARGETING OF THIS AREA AND THE TARGETING OF THE COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, IN PARTICULAR, THE WAY THAT THEY HAVE MARKETED THIS AS THE NUCLEAR CORRIDOR, WHERE CORRIDOR INSINUATES OPPORTUNITIES, THIS IS NOT GOING TO PROVIDE THE OPPORTUNITIES FOR THESE COMMUNITIES IN THE WAYS THAT THESE COMMUNITIES ARE BEING TOLD.

THAT'S JUST NOT THE CASE.

AND SO BY BRINGING SPENT FUEL FROM, YOU KNOW, 12 DECOMMISSIONED FACILITIES WHEN NEW MEXICO ACTUALLY DOES NOT HAVE SPENT FUEL, WE DON'T HAVE A POWER PLANT IN NEW MEXICO, ALTHOUGH WE PAY INTO IT THROUGH PNM, YOU KNOW, IT CREATES A REAL CONUNDRUM.

THE OTHER INTERESTING THING ABOUT THAT IS THE BLUE RIBBON COMMITTEE DURING THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, ACTUALLY ONE OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS WAS THAT THEY SHOULDN'T LICENSE AN INTERIM STORAGE FACILITY WITHOUT A PLAN FOR A PERMANENT REPOSITORY.

CURRENTLY WE DON'T HAVE A PLAN FOR A PERMANENT REPOSITORY IN THIS COUNTRY.

THAT WAS TAKEN OFF THE TABLE.

YUCCA MOUNTAIN WAS TAKEN OFF THE TABLE DURING THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.

WE NEVER SAW IT COME BACK UP DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, AND WE HAVEN'T HEARD ANY TALK OF A HIGH-LEVEL REPOSITORY NOW DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

SO THE FACT THAT THEY ARE MOVING AHEAD AFTER THIS COMMISSION WORKED TO GIVE VERY RESEARCHED AND DETAILED RECOMMENDATIONS IS JUST UNBELIEVABLE.

>> Laura: SO IN AN INTERVIEW THAT WE JUST HEARD, JOHN HEATON REFERRED TO NEW MEXICO AS A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY, AND HE'S NOT THE FIRST PERSON I HAVE HEARD TALK ABOUT NEW MEXICO LIKE THAT, THAT WE DON'T THINK ABOUT THE FUTURE.

YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

>> Dr. Gomez: I THINK THAT THERE'S KIND OF TWO PARTS TO TEASE OUT THERE.

CALLING NEW MEXICO A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY IS BLATANT RACISM.

IT IS THE DISMISSAL OF PEOPLE WHO ARE LIVING IN THE STATE WHO HAVE BEEN HERE SINCE TIME IMMEMORIAL, INDIGENOUS FOLKS, AND THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE NEW MEXICO WHAT IT IS TODAY WHO CONTINUE TO BE EMERSED AMONG THESE PRACTICES, WHO CONTINUE TO BE FIGHTING ON A DAILY BASIS FOR THEIR CHILDREN AND THEIR CHILDREN'S FUTURES, AND THEIR ANCESTORS, WHAT THEIR ANCESTORS HAVE DONE AND WHAT THEIR ELDERS HAVE DONE.

AND ONE THING THAT YOU WILL NOTE IN THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES IS THAT COMMUNITY IS VERY IMPORTANT, AND THE COMMUNITY HAS BEEN LEFT OUT OF ALL, ALL OF THE NUCLEAR ISSUES AND NUCLEAR SITING THAT'S HAPPENED IN NEW MEXICO.

SO YOU KNOW, THAT'S SOMETHING TO KIND OF TAKE NOTE OF IN THE WAYS THAT THERE ARE SPECIFIC CONNOTATIONS DEALING WITH RACE AND POVERTY THAT THE LABELING OF A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY HAS TO DO WITH.

NOW, THE OTHER THING, THE OTHER COMMENT ABOUT NEW MEXICO NOT THINKING ABOUT ITS FUTURE, NEW MEXICO OFTENTIMES DOESN'T GET A SAY IN ITS FUTURE.

AGAIN, WE HAVE NOT GOTTEN TO MAKE THE DECISIONS.

THESE DECISIONS WERE MADE FOR US.

THE SITING OF LOS ALAMOS FOR THE MANHATTAN PROJECT WAS MADE FOR US.

THE SITING OF TRINITY FOR THE TEST OF THE GADGET WAS MADE FOR US.

A LOT OF THESE DECISIONS HAVE BEEN MADE FOR US WITHOUT THE INCLUSION OF THE PUBLIC OPINION.

AND I WOULD ENCOURAGE THEM TO LOOK AT SO MANY ORGANIZATIONS ACROSS THE STATE THAT ARE NOT JUST FIGHTING FOR NUCLEAR SAFETY ISSUES, BUT OTHER ISSUES TO COMBAT CLIMATE CHANGE, FOR EXAMPLE, TO COMBAT ALL OF THESE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE GROUNDED IN LAND-BASED PRACTICES.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE DOING WORK NOT JUST FOR THEMSELVES, BUT TO ENSURE THE SURVIVAL OF THEIR CULTURE AND THEIR PEOPLE AND THEIR LAND AND THEIR WATER RESOURCES FOR THE FUTURE.

I THINK OF THIS ON A DAILY BASIS WITH MY OWN KIDS, WHAT'S GOING TO BE LEFT FOR THEM IF WE'RE NOT TAKING CARE OF OUR NATURAL RESOURCES AND BEING STEWARDS OF THE LAND.

>> Laura: I THINK THERE'S THIS NARRATIVE OUT THERE THAT HAS PROBABLY BEEN PERPETUATED IN THE MEDIA, AS WELL, THAT THE WHOLE STATE IS AGAINST THE HOLTEC PLAN EXCEPT FOR SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM PEOPLE IN SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO?

>> Dr. Gomez: YOU KNOW, THERE ARE MANY, MANY PEOPLE IN SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO.

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS LOOK AT THE LIST OF THE RESOLUTIONS THAT WERE PASSED ALL ACROSS THE STATE TO SEE THAT THERE ARE LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE OPPOSED TO THIS INITIATIVE.

HOLTEC TURNED THIS INTO -- AND EDDY-LEA ENERGY ALLIANCE, REALLY, HAS TURNED THIS INTO A 'YES IN MY BACKYARD/NO IN MY BACKYARD' DICHOTOMY WHEN REALLY IT SHOULDN'T BE THAT, AND THAT DETRACTS FROM SOME OF THE BASE ISSUES AND BASE NEGOTIATIONS THAT ARE TAKING PLACE.

I THINK ONE OF THE KIND OF IMPORTANT THINGS THAT WE NEED TO TAKE NOTE OF IS HOW WE SEE HISTORY REPEATING ITSELF, AND AGAIN, THIS IS PART OF THAT SETTLER COLONIALISM IN THAT SAME NARRATIVE.

SO IN THE 1880S, NEW MEXICO STARTED WHAT WAS CALLED THE BUREAU OF IMMIGRATION.

TODAY WE HEAR SOMETHING LIKE A TITLE LIKE BUREAU OF IMMIGRATION, AND WE'RE PRONE TO THINK OF, YOU KNOW, U.S.-MEXICO BORDER ISSUES, SOMETHING LIKE ICE, FOR EXAMPLE.

BUT ACTUALLY, THAT'S NOT WHAT THE BUREAU OF IMMIGRATION WAS CREATED FOR IN THE 1880S.

IN FACT, IT WAS CREATED AS A WAY TO ATTRACT MIDWESTERN WHITE MEN -- FARMERS, IN PARTICULAR -- TO NEW MEXICO BY USING THE RHETORIC THAT WE HAD PLENTIFUL NATURAL RESOURCES, AS A WAY TO SHIFT THE POPULATION.

THAT WAY WE COULD THEN MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT WE WERE FIT FOR STATEHOOD.

SO WE BECOME A U.S.

TERRITORY IN 1848.

WE ARE TOLD THAT WE WOULD BECOME A STATE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

IN 1849, THEY FIND GOLD IN CALIFORNIA.

CALIFORNIA BECOMES A STATE IN 1850.

IT TAKES NEW MEXICO 64 YEARS TO BECOME A STATE.

SO BETWEEN 1880 AND 1912, WE SEE THIS BUREAU OF IMMIGRATION WORKING TO SELL NEW MEXICO.

WE SEE TREATISES LIKE ASLAN BEING WRITTEN AS A WAY TO REPLICATE AND REALLY CREATE AND MANGLE THESE MYTHS AND THESE MYTHOLOGIES THAT ARE HELD SACRED IN OUR COMMUNITIES, AND REIMAGINE THEM AS A WAY TO SELL AND ATTRACT OUR LAND, AND ATTRACT THESE MIDWESTERN WHITE MEN.

I MEAN, IT IS VERY SPECIFIC THAT THAT WAS WHAT IT WAS FOR.

AND SO WE SEE THIS SAME LANGUAGE WITH THE NUCLEAR CORRIDOR BEING USED NOW AS A WAY TO ATTRACT, NOT FOR NATURAL RESOURCES, BUT FOR WASTE STORAGE, WHICH IS VERY SIMILAR.

>> Laura: IN HIS INTERVIEW, MR. HEATON ALSO SAYS NO ONE HELPS RURAL COMMUNITIES.

IN YOUR ANALYSIS, HOW CAN RURAL COMMUNITIES NEGOTIATE TO BE HEARD AND TO NOT BE EXPLOITED?

>> Dr. Gomez: I THINK THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION AND IT MIGHT BE ONE THING THAT MR. HEATON AND I AGREE ON.

I THINK THAT THAT'S WHY WE'RE IN THIS SITUATION TO BEGIN WITH.

THE RURALNESS OF NEW MEXICO AND THE POPULATION OF NEW MEXICO IN THE 1940S IS THE WHOLE REASON WE WERE SITED FOR THE MANHATTAN PROJECT, WHICH KICKED OFF THE WHOLE NUCLEAR INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.

BUT I THINK THAT RURAL COMMUNITIES CANNOT BE DISCOUNTED FOR THE TENACITY THAT THEY PRESENT, FOR THE WAY THAT THEY KNOW HOW TO MOBILIZE RESOURCES, FOR THE WAYS THAT THEY VALUE THEIR PEOPLE AND THEY VALUE THE VOICES AND THE KNOWLEDGE, THE ANCESTORIAL KNOWLEDGE IN THEIR COMMUNITIES.

ONE EXAMPLE THAT I'M THINKING OF RIGHT NOW IS WHAT WE'RE SEEING AS A RESULT OF THE MAJOR FIRES IN THE LAS VEGAS AREA, WHICH IS ANOTHER ONE OF MY ANCESTORIAL COMMUNITIES.

MY GRANDPA WAS BORN AND RAISED IN LA LIENDRE.

AND ONE THING THAT WE'RE SEEING IS A MAJOR DISTRUST OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, WHICH HAS KIND OF BEEN HISTORICAL BY WAY OF THE NATIONAL FOREST SERVICE, BUT WE ALSO SEE THAT THERE ARE ORGANIZATIONS NOW, THAT THERE ARE OTHER ENTITIES THAT ARE COMING AND CREATING THESE CULTURAL RESOURCES OR DOING CULTURAL MAPPING OF THIS COMMUNITY, AND THE COMMUNITY IS NOT BEING INVOLVED.

I MEAN, THAT'S JUST NEGLIGIBLE TO DO THAT.

YOU HAVE TO INCLUDE THE STAKEHOLDERS.

SO EXCLUDING RURAL STAKEHOLDERS FROM CONVERSATIONS THAT HAVE MAJOR IMPACTS ON RURAL COMMUNITIES JUST SHOULDN'T HAPPEN, AND CAN'T HAPPEN IF WE'RE TO ENSURE NOT JUST THE SURVIVAL, BUT THE, YOU KNOW, WAYS THAT THESE COMMUNITIES CAN FLOURISH.

>> Laura: DR. GOMEZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> Dr. Gomez: THANK YOU, LAURA.

>> Laura: NOW WE'RE GOING TO GO BACK TO JOHN HEATON.

WE TALKED FOR A REALLY LONG TIME -- 54 MINUTES, ACTUALLY.

AS YOU KNOW, MOST CONVERSATIONS ON THIS SHOW AIR AT ABOUT 10, MAYBE 15 MINUTES, SO WE'RE NOT SHARING THAT WHOLE CONVERSATION, BUT I HAD A LOT OF QUESTIONS AND HE WAS GENEROUS WITH HIS TIME.

>> Laura: JUST IN THE NEWS, A FORMER VICE-PRESIDENT AND CFO OF HOLTEC SAID HE WAS FIRED FOR SPEAKING OUT AGAINST FALSE AND MISLEADING STATEMENTS PREPARED FOR INVESTORS.

THAT INTERNAL PROJECTION SHOWED THE FACILITY WOULD ACTUALLY LOSE $150 MILLION IN THE FIRST FIVE YEARS.

BUT THE CEO PRESSURED HIM TO CHANGE IT, SO INVESTORS WERE TOLD IT WOULD BREAK EVEN IN THE FIRST FIVE YEARS.

SO THOSE ALLEGATIONS ARE PRETTY SIGNIFICANT.

>> Heaton: OKAY, I DON'T KNOW WHO THE INVESTORS ARE, FIRST OF ALL, OKAY, IN THIS PROJECT.

BUT I DO KNOW, BECAUSE I PERSONALLY HAVE STARTED UP FIVE OR SIX DIFFERENT BUSINESSES, AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT IT'S A STRUGGLE FOR TWO OR THREE YEARS UNTIL YOU GET ENOUGH BUSINESS TO GET TO A BREAK-EVEN POINT AND THEN GROW FROM THERE.

BUT WHAT GOES ON IS, THESE ARE INTERNAL PROJECTIONS.

YOU'VE GOT TO REALIZE, HOLTEC IS A PRIVATE COMPANY.

OKAY?

THIS IS NOT A BIG BOARD COMPANY.

IT DOESN'T HAVE STOCKHOLDERS.

THIS IS A PRIVATE COMPANY, AND IF THE CFO DIDN'T LIKE THE NUMBERS, THEN I DON'T KNOW WHY HE WOULD ARGUE WITH THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE OTHER NUMBERS WITHIN THE COMPANY.

AND I THINK THIS IS SOUR GRAPES, FRANKLY, AFTER HE WAS DISCHARGED.

I WOULD BE UNHAPPY ABOUT MY CFO NOT ADHERING TO NUMBERS THAT I BELIEVED WERE ACCURATE AND THE GROWTH FACTORS THAT I BELIEVED WERE GOING TO OCCUR, AND YOU'VE GOT TO UNDERSTAND THAT ALL OF THOSE ARE PROJECTIONS.

NOBODY KNOWS IN A START-UP EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

OKAY?

AND SO I THINK THE ACCUSATIONS OF THE CFO ARE, IN MY MIND, VERY, VERY CORE, AND I THINK IT'S SOUR GRAPES, PERIOD, END OF STORY.

>> Laura: SO IF HOLTEC IS PAID TO DECOMMISSION THESE PLANTS, WHY WOULD THEY BE LOSING MONEY?

LIKE YOU MENTIONED A START-UP CAN LOSE MONEY IN THE FIRST FEW YEARS.

IF THEY'RE GETTING PAID TO DO THIS, WHY WOULD THEY LOSE MONEY ON THE FACILITY?

>> Heaton: OKAY, THE PLANTS THAT THEY'RE DECOMMISSIONING IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORY.

THERE ARE FUNDS THAT ARE AVAILABLE THAT HAVE BEEN PUT IN TRUST FOR YEARS AND YEARS FOR THE DECOMMISSIONING PROCESS.

SO THE REALITY IS, WHEN THEY BUY A POWER PLANT AND THEN SIGN UP TO DECOMMISSION IT, THEIR EXPECTATION IS THAT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO DECOMMISSION THAT FACILITY WITHIN THE ECONOMIC SCOPE OF WHAT'S IN THE TRUST FUND.

OKAY?

SO THIS ISN'T, FROM MY MIND, THIS IS NOT CONJECTURE.

THEY KNOW WHAT'S THERE, THEY KNOW WHAT OTHER COMPANIES -- THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF FACILITIES THAT HAVE BEEN DECOMMISSIONED.

THEY KNOW, BASICALLY KNOW WHAT THOSE COSTS ARE AND HOW DIFFICULT IT IS OR ISN'T.

AND SO THEY'RE NOT GOING INTO IT BLIND.

OKAY?

IT'S LIKE THE FACILITY IN NEW MEXICO, THEY KNOW THAT THERE ARE SO MANY CANISTERS THAT NEED TO BE MOVED FROM DIFFERENT SITES, BUT IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE BECAUSE THE UNIT TRAINS, THE DEDICATED TRAINS THAT ARE GOING TO BE USED, ONLY CAN CARRY 10 TO 12 CASKS AT ONE TIME.

SO WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, AND ONLY ONE CASK PER MONTH -- OR ONE TRAIN PER MONTH, BECAUSE IT TAKES EIGHT HOURS TO GET THAT CANISTER OUT OF THE CASK TO A TRANSFER CASK, AND THEN SUBSEQUENTLY MOVE IT TO THE SITE TO PUT IT INTO A SILO AND PUT THE CAP BACK ON THAT SILO, IT ALL TAKES TIME.

SO IF YOU HAVE TEN CARS, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE -- THAT'S GOING TO BE TEN DAYS THAT IT TAKES TO DO THAT.

AND THEN YOU'VE GOT TRANSPORT TIME BACK AND FORTH.

AND THEN YOU'VE ALSO GOT THE LOADING TIME THAT OCCURS ON THE FRONT END.

SO THIS IS -- YOU KNOW, IN THE BEGINNING, WE THINK THAT THERE WILL ONLY BE ONE TRAIN PER MONTH, AND WHEN YOU LISTEN TO PEOPLE LIKE STEINBORN, YOU'D THINK THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE A TRAIN COMING THROUGH NEW MEXICO EVERY DAY, OR THREE TIMES A DAY, AND THAT'S JUST NOT THE CASE.

AND MAYBE THEY'LL BE ABLE TO BUMP IT UP TO TWO TRAINS A MONTH, BUT THAT'S HOW SLOWLY.

SO OUT OF THE 500 SILOS THAT ARE IN THERE, THAT THEY'VE SPENT, YOU KNOW, $300 MILLION PUTTING TOGETHER, PLUS THE EQUIPMENT, THEN YOU'VE GOT TO REALIZE THAT, YOU KNOW, GETTING 100 OF THESE CANISTERS IS WAY BELOW WHAT IT NEEDS TO BE TO BREAK EVEN.

SO I MEAN, PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT.

AND MAKING THESE FALSE ACCUSATIONS JUST DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE, AND ESPECIALLY IF IT'S THE CFO.

HE OBVIOUSLY DOESN'T UNDERSTANDS THE PROCESS.

>> Laura: SO NEW MEXICO'S POLITICAL LEADERSHIP IS AGAINST THIS PROJECT.

AS YOU MENTIONED, THE LEGISLATURE PASSED A BILL AGAINST IT.

IN 2020, A COALITION OF 50 GROUPS ASKED THE NRC TO SUSPEND THE HOLTEC PROCEEDING.

HUGE NUMBERS OF NEW MEXICANS ARE AGAINST IT.

ARE ANY OF THESE -- ARE ANY OF THEIR CONCERNS VALID?

>> Heaton: I DON'T THINK ANY OF THEM ARE VALID.

THERE ARE A LOT OF THESE LITTLE SPLINTER GROUPS THAT ARE MADE UP OF THREE OR FOUR PEOPLE THAT ARE BEING DRIVEN BY A SINGLE ORGANIZATION IN THE STATE, AND THEN YOU'VE GOT ALL THE SMALL GROUPS OF NATIVE AMERICANS, AND THIS PROJECT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PAST URANIUM MINING, WHATSOEVER.

I MEAN, GRANTED, IF THE TRAIN COMES DOWN I-40 FROM CALIFORNIA, YOU KNOW, IT WILL MOVE THROUGH NAVAJO LANDS, BUT THE RISKS ARE NONEXISTENT.

AND IT'S THE SAME FOR OTHERS.

I MEAN, WE'VE HEARD -- I'VE HEARD THE SPONSOR OF THE BILL SAY THE TRAIN WILL GO THROUGH ALBUQUERQUE.

THE TRAIN DOESN'T GO THROUGH ALBUQUERQUE.

IT'S A FALSE STATEMENT.

THE TRAIN WILL GO THROUGH SANTA FE.

IT DOES NOT GO THROUGH SANTA FE.

THE TRAIN WILL GO THROUGH LAS CRUCES.

NO, IT DOES NOT.

THOSE ARE ALL FALSE STATEMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN PROPAGATED OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN THE LAST FOUR OR FIVE YEARS.

IT'S ABSOLUTE FEAR MONGERING.

AND THIS IDEA THAT THERE WERE 50 GROUPS IS RIDICULOUS.

THOSE ARE SMALL GROUPS OF THREE OR FOUR PEOPLE THAT WERE ALL BEING ORGANIZED BY HIM AND HIS OTHER, YOU KNOW, COMPANIONS TO SCARE PEOPLE.

AND IT'S JUST NOT THE CASE.

>> Laura: SO ON THE HOLTEC WEBSITE, YOU AND SOME OTHER NEW MEXICANS ARE LISTED AS PART OF THE LEADERSHIP TEAM.

THERE'S HOBBS MAYOR SAM COBB.

LEA COUNTY COMMISSIONER GREG FULFER.

AND I KNOW THAT FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL GARY KING, WHO I HAVE REACHED OUT TO, BUT WHO HAS NOT CALLED ME BACK, IS A REGISTERED LOBBYIST FOR HOLTEC IN NEW MEXICO.

WHO ARE SOME OF THE OTHER PEOPLE ADVOCATING FOR THIS PROJECT WHO AREN'T EITHER DIRECTLY GETTING PAID BY HOLTEC, OR STAND TO MAKE A PROFIT FROM THIS FACILITY?

>> Heaton: OKAY, IT IS THE EDDY AND LEA COUNTY MEMBERS.

YOU KNOW, THE FIVE ON EACH, EDDY AND LEA COUNTY MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION.

THEY DON'T GET PAID ANYTHING FOR THIS.

THEY GET THEIR REGULAR SALARY WHETHER THEY'RE SUPPORTING IT OR NOT SUPPORTING IT.

THE CITY COMMISSIONERS AND CITY COUNCILORS ARE THE SAME WAY.

THEY'RE VERY MUCH INVOLVED, VERY, VERY SUPPORTIVE.

IN FACT, THE FOUR ORGANIZATIONS HAVE ALL JUST PASSED A RESOLUTION SUPPORTING THE PROJECT AGAIN.

SO OVER AND OVER AGAIN, WHY DOES SOMEBODY 400 MILES AWAY HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT A PROJECT IN SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO?

AND THAT'S THE REAL ISSUE.

I MEAN, THEY HAVE NO STANDING IN REALITY.

>> Laura: WELL, JOHN HEATON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPENDING ALL THIS TIME WITH ME.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> Heaton: WELL, THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.

I HOPE THAT WE WERE ABLE TO EDUCATE SOME PEOPLE IN THE PUBLIC TO REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS PROJECT IS.

>> Laura: THANK YOU, JOHN.

>> Heaton: IT'S A MAJOR NEED FOR THE COUNTRY.

SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME, I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> Laura: THANK YOU.

>> Laura: BECAUSE MR. HEATON BROUGHT UP SENATE BILL 53 AND ITS SPONSOR, NEW MEXICO STATE SENATOR JEFF STEINBORN, I HAD SOME QUESTIONS FOR HIM.

HERE, STEINBORN TALKS ABOUT THE BILL AND ADDRESSES SOME OF THE CRITICISMS YOU JUST HEARD.

>> Laura: SENATOR JEFF STEINBORN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME TODAY.

>> Steinborn: SURE, YOU'RE WELCOME.

>> Laura: SO THIS YEAR, THE NEW MEXICO STATE LEGISLATURE PASSED YOUR BILL, SENATE BILL 53.

WHY WAS THAT BILL IMPORTANT TO PASS RIGHT NOW?

>> Steinborn: IT WAS SUPER IMPORTANT AND TIMELY TO PASS BECAUSE, AS WE KNEW, HOLTEC HAS BEEN APPLYING FOR LICENSE TO BUILD THIS NATIONAL, MAYBE INTERNATIONAL-SCALE HIGH-LEVEL NUCLEAR WASTE STORAGE FACILITY, AND IT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT NEW MEXICO, TO THE EXTENT THAT WE WERE OPPOSED TO IT, WHICH OBVIOUSLY WE ARE, NEEDED TO TAKE THIS STEP TO PROTECT OUR STATE.

AND SO WE PASSED THIS LAW, AND WE DID IT BEFORE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GRANTED HIM A LICENSE.

I THINK THAT WAS VERY STRATEGIC FOR US TO DO.

>> Laura: SO WE INTERVIEWED JOHN HEATON RECENTLY AND HE ACCUSED YOU OF LYING ABOUT THE PROJECT, AND ONE SPECIFIC THING HE SAID WAS ABOUT TRAIN ROUTES.

HE SAID THAT HE HAD HEARD THE SPONSOR OF THE BILL, YOU, SAY THAT THE TRAIN WILL GO THROUGH ALBUQUERQUE, OR GO THROUGH SANTA FE OR LAS CRUCES.

HE SAID THOSE ARE FALSE STATEMENTS AND A PART OF FEAR MONGERING.

SO DID YOU SAY THAT ABOUT THE TRAIN ROUTES, AND WHY?

>> Steinborn: YEAH, BECAUSE -- I DID SAY THAT, AND I THINK JOHN HEATON IS INCORRECT AND HE SHOULD GO BACK TO HOLTEC AND GET CLEARED UP ON THIS ISSUE.

HOLTEC, AT THE VERY FIRST COMMITTEE HEARING I HELD AS THE STATE'S LEGISLATIVE CHAIR OF THE RADIOACTIVE AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS COMMITTEE, HOLTEC PRESENTED US A MAP OF THE RAIL ROUTES ACROSS NEW MEXICO, WHICH IT WAS ACTUALLY GIVEN TO US BY HOLTEC AND IT SHOWED RAIL ROUTES ACROSS THE STATE, INCLUDING THROUGH BERNALILLO COUNTY AND LAS CRUCES IN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO.

IN FACT, ALL PARTS OF NEW MEXICO.

AND THEY SAID, AND HAVE SAID, AND I BELIEVE THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STATEMENT FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SAYS, IS THAT RAIL WOULD BE COMING THROUGH ALL PARTS OF NEW MEXICO.

IT'S TOP SECRET.

THEY WILL NOT DIVULGE WHERE IT'S GOING TO COME, BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO HAVE ARMED GUARDS.

THEY SAID THEY WOULD NOT TELL THE STATE UNTIL A FEW DAYS BEFORE THE SHIPMENTS HAPPEN, BUT THAT, IN FACT, IT WOULD BE COMING IN VIA RAIL, AND WE HAVE RAIL COMING IN THROUGH ALL PARTS OF THE STATE.

SO THE REALITY IS, AS CITIZENS OF THE STATE AND AS LEGISLATORS GETTING THIS INFORMATION, IT'S REASONABLE FOR US TO ASSUME ANY RAIL ROUTE ON THAT MAP THEY PRESENTED TO US CAN BE FAIR GAME FOR THEM, AND THAT, IN FACT, THEY SAID THAT THEY WILL MIX UP THE ROUTE JUST TO KEEP IT A LITTLE MORE SECRETIVE AND KEEP WOULD-BE SABOTEURS -- NOT HAVE THESE ROUTES BE PREDICTABLE.

SO I THINK THAT'S THE REALITY OF THE MATTER, AND FOR JOHN TO SAY OTHERWISE IS NOT PART OF ANY RECORD OR PART OF WHAT HOLTEC HAS EVER DISPUTED.

IN FACT, WHAT HE'S SAYING GOES AGAINST THE VERY MAP THEY SHOWED US.

>> Laura: MR. HEATON ALSO SUGGESTED THAT YOU WERE BEHIND THE ORGANIZED OPPOSITION TO HOLTEC.

YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

>> Steinborn: I WAS, AS THE LEGISLATURE'S POINT PERSON, AS THE CHAIR OF THE RADIOACTIVE AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS COMMITTEE.

YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING, I WILL POINT OUT THAT I DID NOT TAKE A POSITION ON HOLTEC FOR ABOUT A YEAR.

WHEN I FIRST HEARD ABOUT THIS, I ASKED QUESTIONS OF THEM.

THE MARTINEZ ADMINISTRATION, I THINK I ASKED THEM ABOUT 65 QUESTIONS OF HALF A DOZEN DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS ABOUT WHAT DUE DILIGENCE THEY HAD DONE.

AFTER GETTING THE RUN-AROUND AND FRANKLY GETTING MISTRUTHS FROM THE COMPANY AND SEEING THEIR ABSOLUTE ARROGANCE TO THIS PROJECT AND OUR CONCERNS, I CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT IT WAS A REALLY BAD THING FOR THE STATE AND I STARTED TO FIGHT AGAINST IT.

SO YES, AS AN UNPAID LEGISLATOR, I ABSOLUTELY DID LEAD THE CHARGE, AND THAT'S MY JOB, LOOKING OUT FOR THE CITIZENS OF THE STATE.

>> Laura: ARE YOU HEARING FROM CONSTITUENTS WHO SUPPORT THE PROJECT, OR WHO DON'T, OR ARE MIXED?

>> Steinborn: I HAVE NOT HEARD FROM A SINGLE CONSTITUENT OF MINE THAT IS IN FAVOR OF THIS PROJECT.

IN FACT, IT'S REALLY INTERESTING, LAURA, WHEREVER I GO -- AND I REPRESENT A FAIRLY RURAL DISTRICT THAT GOES ALL THE WAY TO SIERRA COUNTY.

AND I HELD HALF A DOZEN COMMUNITY MEETINGS PRIOR TO THE SESSION IN PLACES LIKE HATCH, RADIUM SPRINGS, NEW MEXICO, DONA ANA, NEW MEXICO.

AND THE THING THAT THEY WERE MOST CONCERNED ABOUT WAS THIS PROPOSAL.

AND I'M HEARING FROM PEOPLE ALL OVER THE STATE, INCLUDING IN SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO, THAT ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT IT.

SO I THINK THE CITIZENS ARE AGAINST THIS PROJECT, LARGELY, AND THAT'S WHAT WE SAW IN A POLL THAT WAS DONE PRIOR TO THE SESSION OF OVER A THOUSAND NEW MEXICANS.

YEAH, THERE'S VERY LITTLE SUPPORT.

>> Laura: SO NEW MEXICO IS NOT THE ONLY STATE PASSING BANS.

THE NEW YORK STATE ASSEMBLY BANNED HOLTEC FROM DISCHARGING INTO THE HUDSON RIVER, AND MASSACHUSETTS IN JULY JUST RELEASED A DRAFT RULE PREVENTING HOLTEC FROM RELEASING WATER INTO CAPE COD BAY.

HOW IS HOLTEC RESPONDED TO GO THESE BANS, OR AT LEAST RESPONDING TO THE BAN IN NEW MEXICO?

>> Steinborn: WITH ARROGANCE, THE BEST I CAN TELL.

THIS IS A COMPANY THAT REALLY STARTED OFF KIND OF IN THE MANUFACTURING OF EQUIPMENT TO SERVICE THE INDUSTRY THAT ONLY RECENTLY, RELATIVELY, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, HAS GOTTEN INTO KIND OF BEING ON THE END OF MANAGING SPENT FUEL AND THEN PROMULGATING STORAGE SOLUTIONS.

AND YEAH, THEY'VE HAD A TIN EAR, A DEAF EAR TOWARD LISTENING TO COMMUNITY CONCERNS.

IN OUR STATE, IT WAS CREATING THIS NATIONAL LEVEL REPOSITORY, AND WHEN WE STARTED ASKING QUESTIONS, THEY HIRED LOBBYISTS TO FIGHT BILLS THAT I WOULD INTRODUCE TO SIMPLY ASK OUR STATE TO DO AN IMPACT STUDY.

INSTEAD, THEY HIRED A TEAM OF LOBBYISTS TO FIGHT US.

>> Laura: HAVE YOU MET WITH PEOPLE FROM THE COMPANY?

>> Steinborn: I HAVE.

I HAVE, AND IRONICALLY, SEVERAL YEARS AGO ONE OF THEIR HIGHER-UPS CAME TO LAS CRUCES TO MEET WITH ME, AND HE SAID TO ME THAT IF THE STATE DID NOT WANT THIS, THEN THEY WOULD GO AWAY.

AND I POINTED OUT, I THOUGHT IT WAS INTERESTING THAT THEY ALL LIVED IN FLORIDA.

NONE OF THEM LIVED IN NEW MEXICO.

BUT I SAID, OKAY.

HIS NAME WAS PIERRE.

OKAY.

AND SURE ENOUGH, AS ONE MEMBER OF OUR CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION AFTER ANOTHER, AND OUR GOVERNOR, CAME OUT AND WERE OPPOSED TO IT, HOLTEC OBVIOUSLY DID NOT HONOR THAT.

AND AGAIN, THAT'S PART OF THAT ARROGANCE AND JUST SHOVE IT DOWN OUR THROAT MENTALITY.

AND THAT WAS REALLY OUR OPPOSITION.

AS POLITICAL LEADERSHIP, AND EVEN COMMUNITIES REPRESENTING OVER 50% OF THE STATE'S POPULATION PASSED RESOLUTIONS AGAINST THIS.

THEY DIDN'T CARE ABOUT THAT, AND THAT OPPOSITION EXISTED FOR MOST OF THE LIFE OF THE PROJECT.

SO AGAIN, ANOTHER GOOD REASON WHY WE PASSED THIS BILL.

AND NOW RECENTLY, WE FIND OUT THAT THEIR CFO, FORMER CFO, IS SUING THEM SAYING THAT THEY COOKED THE BOOKS ON THIS PROJECT AND INFLATED THEIR NUMBERS TO INVESTORS.

SO THAT OUGHT TO REALLY GIVE US MORE GRATITUDE THAT WE PASSED THIS BILL, BUT EVEN MORE PAUSE FOR A PROJECT THAT MAY BE FINANCIALLY, ON THE BUSINESS SIDE OF IT, HAD EVEN MORE PROBLEMS POTENTIALLY THAT WOULD HAVE CAUSED IT TO BE LANGUISHED OR -- YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S REALLY THE CONCERN HERE, IS THAT NEW MEXICO, ONCE AGAIN, WILL BE THE DUMPING GROUND OF THE COUNTRY'S CONTAMINATION.

SO YEAH, GLAD WE PASSED THE BILL.

>> Laura: WHY SHOULD ANYONE OUTSIDE OF HOBBS OR CARLSBAD HAVE A SAY IN SITING THIS FACILITY THERE?

>> Steinborn: BECAUSE WE'RE IMPACTED BY IT.

BECAUSE THIS WASTE WOULD COME THROUGH NOT ONLY ALL PARTS OF NEW MEXICO ON RAIL, SO THAT MAKES US A STAKEHOLDER, AND ANY COMMUNITY THAT THESE SHIPMENTS WOULD GO BY CARRYING HIGH-LEVEL NUCLEAR WASTE ARE A STAKEHOLDER, AND ALSO HOLTEC MADE IT CLEAR IN THEIR FIRST PRESENTATION TO US THAT IF THERE'S A RAIL ACCIDENT, IT IS ACTUALLY THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THAT LOCAL GOVERNMENT, THAT LOCAL COMMUNITY AND THE STATE, TO DO EMERGENCY RESPONSE.

SO THAT MAKES US ALL STAKEHOLDERS.

AND NOT JUST IN NEW MEXICO, BUT ACROSS THE WHOLE COUNTRY.

THE WHOLE COUNTRY WHERE THIS WASTE WOULD SHIP BY.

IT'S SO IMPERATIVE THAT WE HAVE A NATIONAL, REAL SOLUTION TO DEALING WITH THIS WASTE AND NOT SOME COMPANY'S PROFIT DRIVEN SOLUTION THAT WE ALL END UP BEING IMPACTED BY.

SO I THINK THAT ARGUMENT THAT, HEY, THIS IS OUR PROJECT AND WE HAVE NO RIGHT, I THINK THAT WAS ONE OF THE ORIGINAL KIND OF INSULTS TO ALL OF US THAT, OF COURSE, ARE STAKEHOLDERS, AND HAVE A RIGHT TO HAVE AN OPINION.

AND SO THAT'S JUST PATENTLY UNTRUE, OF COURSE.

>> Laura: NEW MEXICO'S POLITICAL LEADERSHIP, INCLUDING THE FEDERAL DELEGATION, ARE AGAINST THIS PROJECT.

WE SEE THESE BANS HAPPENING IN OTHER STATES WHERE THEY HAD POWER PLANTS AND THEY DON'T WANT THE WASTE, OR THE DISCHARGE OF THE WASTE.

ARE THERE COMMUNITIES OUT THERE IN THE NATION WHO ARE VOLUNTEERING FOR THIS WASTE?

AND IF NOT, LIKE, WHY DOES NEW MEXICO GET STUCK WITH IT?

>> Steinborn: NO, NOT THAT I'M AWARE OF.

WHY DOES NEW MEXICO?

BECAUSE THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT, AND THEY CAN POWER PLAY US, AND WE HAVE LESS COLLECTIVE, MAYBE, POLITICAL POWER AT A NATIONAL LEVEL TO BE ABLE TO FIGHT THIS.

AND YOU TEND TO FIND THAT THIS FIGHT IS BETWEEN THOSE THAT WANT TO GET RID OF THE WASTE AND THOSE THAT MAYBE DON'T HAVE AS MUCH POLITICAL POWER TO STOP IT.

AND BECAUSE THIS WASTE EXISTS IN SO MANY STATES, THAT'S A LOT OF COLLECTIVE POWER.

BUT I WILL SAY THIS.

ALSO, THE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, THAT MASTERMINDED THIS PROJECT, JOHN HEATON, INVITED THIS ON OUR STATE.

THEY WORK WITH HOLTEC.

THEY GOT THIS APPLICATION GOING.

SO THAT'S A REALITY, AND I GUESS THAT'S THEIR RIGHT, AND THE WEAKNESS IN THE FEDERAL LAW.

BUT PART OF OUR STORY OF HOW THIS HAPPENED HERE WAS THOSE FOLKS.

>> Laura: THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS ISSUED HOLTEC A LICENSE.

THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO HAS PASSED A BAN.

WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

>> Steinborn: WELL, I THINK FOR THE MOMENT, WE'VE EARNED A REPRIEVE.

I MEAN, THEY'VE GOTTEN THEIR LICENSE, BUT IT'S NOW ILLEGAL.

BECAUSE WE PASSED SENATE BILL 53 INTO LAW, IT IS NOW ILLEGAL FOR THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO TO ISSUE ANY PERMIT NEEDED BY HOLTEC, AND IT WAS ACKNOWLEDGED BY HOLTEC AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT THERE ARE, YOU KNOW, A HANDFUL OF PERMITS NEEDED BY THE STATE FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF A FUTURE FACILITY, THAT IT'S ILLEGAL FOR THE STATE TO ISSUE THOSE PERMITS FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OR OPERATION OF THIS FACILITY.

SO THEY ACTUALLY -- AND FURTHERMORE, IT'S ILLEGAL TO STORE THIS MATERIAL IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO, PERIOD, UNTIL THE STATE SUPPORTS IT AND THERE IS A FEDERAL, PERMANENT REPOSITORY IN OPERATION, WHICH IS A DEEP GEOLOGICAL REPOSITORY.

WELL, OBVIOUSLY NONE OF THOSE CONDITIONS EXIST, SO IT ACTUALLY WOULD BE ILLEGAL.

THEY WOULD BE IN VIOLATION OF STATE LAW.

SO HOLTEC CANNOT PROCEED UNLESS THEY WERE TO SOMEHOW, YOU KNOW, GET OUR LAW RULED ILLEGAL, FEDERALLY, WHICH IS ONE OF THEIR THREATS.

SAME ISSUE IN TEXAS.

BUT THAT'S YET TO BE SEEN.

AND I WILL TELL YOU THERE'S GOVERNANCE, WHICH ALSO ARE NOT ACKNOWLEDGED SOMETIMES BY JOHN AND OTHERS, THAT EDDY COUNTY JUST IN EARLY MAY PASSED A RESOLUTION SAYING, WE'RE DONE, WE DON'T WANT -- WE OPPOSE LEGAL ACTION WITH THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO.

SO KUDOS TO THEM.

I THINK THAT'S THE RIGHT THING, TO LISTEN TO ALL NEW MEXICANS, AND IT'S TIME FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO GET ON WITH A REAL SOLUTION FOR THIS WASTE.

>> Laura: THE STORY OF HOLTEC IS FAR FROM OVER, AND THE PROBLEM OF SAFELY STORING NUCLEAR WASTE FROM POWER PLANTS CONTINUES TO GROW BY ABOUT 2200 TONS EACH YEAR.

ANYTHING REFERENCED IN THIS SHOW -- NEWS ARTICLES, LAWSUITS, STUDIES, LETTERS -- THEY'RE ALL AVAILABLE FOR YOU TO READ ONLINE.

I'LL ALSO BE WRITING ABOUT THIS IN NEXT TUESDAY'S ISSUE OF 'OUR LAND WEEKLY.'

YOU CAN SUBSCRIBE TO THAT NEWSLETTER OR READ IT ONLINE.

JUST GO TO THE NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS WEBSITE.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING THE SHOW THIS WEEK.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO In FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.