- [Voiceover] Live from your Public Media Studios, WVIA presents "Keystone Edition Reports", a Public Affairs program that goes beyond the headlines to address issues in Northeastern and Central Pennsylvania.

This is "Keystone Edition Reports."

And now, moderator Larry Vojtko.

- Hello, I'm Larry Vojtko.

Passenger rail service could be coming back to Scranton, after a more than 50-year hiatus.

Between money in President Biden's infrastructure bill, and a track extension in New Jersey, pieces are falling into place for service between Scranton and New York City.

There are still a lot of variables, and unanswered questions, but we have experts here to fill in, at least, some of the blanks.

If you have a question, call 1-833-408-9842.

Send an email to keystone@wvia.org, or tag us on social with a #keystonereports.

WVIA's Paul Lazar takes a closer look at the passenger rail proposal.

- [Paul] President Biden laid out his infrastructure plan last year, including a $66 billion boost for Amtrak.

Amtrak also unveiled plans to expand passenger rail service, that would add three new routes in the Eastern part of Pennsylvania.

One of those routes would run from Scranton to New York City.

A study shows that route alone would have an $87 million-a-year impact on the area.

Amtrak's plan would include seven new train stations, between the two cities, with three round-trips daily.

Adding the train routes could be a boost for tourism.

According to Amtrak, 27 million people visited the Scranton area in 2019, and most of them came from the New York City area.

More studies are planned to see what needs to happen to make riding the rails from the Electric City, to the Big Apple, a reality.

For "Keystone Edition Reports", I'm Paul Lazar.

(upbeat music) - Well, now we need to hear from you.

We're ready to take your calls, 1-833-408-9842.

Email us at keystone@wvia.org, or message us through our social channels, using the hashtag, keystonereports.

Well, let's welcome our guests, who are here to share their expertise.

Joining us here in the studio is Mayor Paige Cognetti of Scranton, and Paul Vilter is also joining us, via Zoom tonight, he's the Assistant Vice President of Planning and Commercial Services for Amtrak.

Well, welcome, welcome to the conversation.

And I have to start by saying, that for this program, we have had more audience participation, through email, social media, through voicemail questions, than we've had for just about any episode so far in this series.

And so people really are plugged into this, and there are a variety of questions, that kind of pop up, over and over again.

And we have a question that's coming up, in just a bit from John, and it's all about, "Okay, what's this gonna cost?

How is it being funded?

Where are we going to get the money from?"

So let's hear from John, and what he had to say for this.

- [John] I think several questions have to be answered.

First of all, what is going to be the total cost of land acquisition, and extension of the rail line?

What would be the cost of a ticket?

And what benefit is seen for Northeastern Pennsylvania?

- Okay, so that's John.

Paul Vilter from Amtrak, let me ask you this, about the cost, and what he had to say about land acquisition, and the like.

- Sure, well, thank you, first of all, for the opportunity to talk about this really exciting project, and I'm glad to hear there's been so much interest in it.

The cost is something that is divided into pieces.

There's going to be some money that will need to be spent to put some track back in New Jersey, track that was there before, it's about 28 miles, it needs to be replaced.

The track exists everywhere else on the route, and it is owned by New Jersey Transit and Amtrak, in the Eastern end of the route.

And it is owned by the Pennsylvania Northeast Regional Rail Authority in Pennsylvania.

So the good news is, that most of the track, with exception of that piece in Western New Jersey, is already there.

Some improvements will need to be made, to increase the speeds to what we like to run our passenger trains at.

And there will be some cost, of course, to replace the missing segment, and some improvements in New Jersey.

So we don't have a final estimate.

There's actually a study underway right now, to estimate that cost, finally, but we will be sharing that as soon as the study is complete.

- All right, well, we're going to get back to a comment about studies in just a bit, but we have to answer the rest of John's question.

Well, three-part question.

Do we have any idea what a train ticket will cost, at this point, or not?

Is that going to be part of what the study is going to tell us, Mr. Vilter?

- We have not determined the fare yet, that's something that we do in consultation with our local and state partners.

So Amtrak needs to get together with the state, and with the local entities, to decide what the ticket price should be.

We haven't gotten that far yet.

- But I'm certain you're going to try to make it competitive with other of transportation.

- Absolutely.

- The final question, and Mayor Cognetti, I'll let you answer, how do you see... What do you see are the benefits of this?

- For this grant in Northeastern Pennsylvania region, to be connected by rail to New York, and New Jersey, again, would be tremendous.

This line would go from Scranton, all the way to Penn Station, connecting you to 500 other Amtrak routes.

So it's not just between Scranton and New York City, you could go from Scranton, and then get down to DC, or up to Boston, or down to Philly by rail, if you can't get there by car.

We connect us back, of course, this rail line existed until 1970.

We would be connecting back to New York, which is such a major economic hub for us, it's such a major job source, but it doesn't just go Scranton to New York.

It's also New York back to Scranton.

There's not just the tourist element, but there are lots of people who would like to work in a place like Scranton, be able to go between those cities.

You think about, in East Stroudsburg, you could have a couple, one that could work up at the University of Scranton, one could have their job as an attorney, or on Wall Street in New York City.

It would open up economic opportunity for families throughout the region.

And the tourism piece, as we know, as it's very snowy here, this season, I've got lots of friends in the New York, New Jersey area, who would love to be able to take a train, come here, come to Elk Mountain, go to Montage Mountain.

They don't own cars in New York City, they'd love to hop on the train, and get here for recreation, both in the winter and summer months.

- Well, we had a comment from Decara, who wasn't so sure that there would be New Yorkers that would want to come to Scranton.

Let's see what Decara had to say.

"Why would a New Yorker come to Scranton?

I can see people in Wilkes-Barre, Scranton, going to New York, see how it would... you know, and spending money up there.

But I don't see how would give Scranton any money.

I'm a bit concerned about the economic impact.

And I also hope that this doesn't fast-track drugs from New York into the area."

So there are a couple of concerns there, a couple of messages.

- Well, I'll address the drug piece first.

Unfortunately, drugs are a problem all throughout our country, and the highway system is where a lot of those drugs are trafficked.

So that traffic is already here.

I don't think that the Amtrak line would increase that necessarily, but I, of course, understand public safety concerns from people, it is a broad problem.

On the New York to Scranton, a lot of people would like to get out of the city.

Like, they have like to go for a vacation at the lakes.

They like to go for a vacation in a small city, in Scranton, specifically, people love to come and see "The Office" sites.

People love to come and see where President Biden was born.

There's a lot more tourist activity, than I think meets the eye, and not just in Scranton.

That's also in Wilkes-Barre, it's in our other towns, it's Honesdale, and lots of different places.

So I think that economic impact would be important.

The other pieces are educational institutions.

There are so many kids at, say, the University of Scranton, or Lackawanna, or Kings, or Wilkes, from New York and New Jersey.

It would be much easier for those schools to recruit those students, much more easy for those families of those students, to come in for visits, and for them to get home during breaks, if we had this train line.

- Let's talk a bit about how the funding is going to come come about.

We've mentioned it's in the infrastructure bill that was passed last December, I believe.

So let's get down to the nitty-gritty of these numbers here.

Mr. Vilter, where is this money coming from?

And can you explain that funding structure?

- Sure, so Congress put the bipartisan infrastructure law on President Biden's desk, actually November, and it was signed by the President in November.

And the way that Congress structured the money, is it put it into what's called a Federal State Partnership Grant Program.

So every route, like the Scranton route, needs to basically apply, to what's called the Federal Railroad Administration, for grant funding.

And there's two types of funding that are made available, and this is all new.

The federal government has not traditionally helped fund routes like this.

So one type of funding is capital, which is the initial improvements that need to be made to the route.

And the other is operating funding.

So the federal government is making available, through the bipartisan infrastructure law, declining level of federal funding, for operating losses over a period of six years.

And so what that means is that initially, the federal government will pay almost all of the cost of running the service, and then that will decline over time.

So it's a very generous program, and it's really unprecedented, we have not had this before.

But it will require application to the Federal Railroad Administration to receive these grants.

- So what is the cost?

There are numbers that are going out there, that I have learned about, there is a $66 billion number.

There is a $22 billion number.

Mayor Cognetti, can you break that up for us?

- The $66 billion is Amtrak's portion in the infrastructure and jobs act.

The 22, I'm not sure what that would be.

- Mr. Vilter, the 22?

- Sure, sure, so the $66 billion, that's the total for rail, of which, about... this is a lot of numbers, but about 8 of that is really available to Amtrak.

So Amtrak's piece is about 58, of which 30 is earmarked toward the Northeast corridor, and 28 is earmarked toward routes all around the country.

And so out of that, 28 for routes all around the country, 16 of that is available for projects such as this.

- Okay, so what I understand is that Amtrak has dollars, have been appropriated dollars, not only to put in new service, but also to maintain and upgrade existing service, correct?

- That is correct.

- Okay.

- Yep.

- And then, any additional funds from that total, that was appropriated, that $66 billion, whatever... - 58 for us.

- 58 for Amtrak, goes into competitive grants, so that a city, like Scranton, has to actually apply for that, and make an argument, why Scranton should get a portion of that money.

- That's correct.

- Okay.

- Yeah, and the state, Amtrak and the state, and the city, altogether, have to collaborate on it.

- All right, so what's your argument?

(laughs) - So it's been great, Amtrak has been wonderful.

We've been in close touch with them, ever since previously, when we were trying to advocate for the infrastructure bill to go through.

I've had a great opportunity to speak with the White House, and the Department of Transportation, actually, just on Friday, and talk through the process of when, when that application will be out, what are the things that we need to be doing?

I try to stay in front of them, as does Representative Cartwright, as does Larry Malski, with the PNRRA, does a great job.

We're working really hard to keep pushing for this, and keep making the case, not just in Scranton, but again, through the entire corridor.

I get pushed back, sometimes people say, "We've been wanting this train for 30 years, what's different now?"

One reason I give is that the traffic issues in Northern New Jersey have gotten to a point that's far worse than at 10, 20, 30 years ago.

So really, there's support for this, all the way through New Jersey to New York City.

Soon, we'll be releasing a letter, from Mayors across the line, in support for this.

So this isn't just the Scranton Mayor excited about this, this is communities is all throughout, that would benefit from this, and that support it.

- Yes, and so, as the stakeholders make their applications, and put forth for this grant money, how important is it for us, just the regular folk, to, you know, sound their possible support for this project?

How important is it to hear the enthusiasm from the crowd?

- Right, like anything, we will be asking for people to support.

We're not actually sure what format that should be, but even just people across the different organizations you're a part of.

I've been talking with the NAACP in Scranton, they're wanting to activate their network across the line.

The Chambers of Commerce have been in contact, and wanting to make sure that they're making the case for it.

So, there's lots of support, we'll be looking for support from the public, though, so that when we go, and go for this grant, the federal government knows that this is the right type of project.

And like Paul said, we're ahead of the game, in that the entire route is publicly owned.

We think that this could be a quick, relative to infrastructure timelines, a quick win for Amtrak, for the region, and for President Biden's initiative.

- So let's talk a little bit about how this is actually just nuts and bolts.

Where is the train station, where is that going to be?

- Right, in Scranton, the train station, that multimodal center, already exists, so- - That's Lackawanna Avenue, correct?

- Right, so there's pieces there, that we would want to enhance, of course.

And there's lots of different amenities we would wanna make sure are there, but that piece is there.

And because this train line has existed in the past, new stations need to be built, but there are spaces for them.

And while, of course, all these things do cost money, we're not recreating the wheel, in the way that we would, if we were trying to, you know, cut a tunnel through the mountains.

- And I would think that maybe we're a little bit ahead of the game, of some of the other communities that are up for this, because we do have, already, the facilities that act as a train station.

The right-away has been secured, all the way through Pennsylvania, from Scranton, all the way to the border of Pennsylvania.

Mr. Vilter had mentioned there were some tracks that have to be acquired, or built in New Jersey.

But you know, people are interested in what that experience is going to be like.

And you mentioned that we could go elsewhere from this, taking the train in Scranton.

So, are you telling me I can buy, I dunno, a ticket to Orlando, in Scranton, and get there?

- Right, that would be a connector in that way, right?

So I think about Newark, getting to Newark Airport.

Whenever I go there, I have to figure out if I'm getting a car service, and my, you know, and my husband dropping me off, that's a long ride.

If I could take the train, and get off at Newark, I could take the New Jersey Transit right to the airport.

So there's those pieces, too, where you not even connecting via Amtrak, but connecting to those larger airports, which we're missing here, in Northeastern Pennsylvania.

- So people are really interested in what this experience is going to be like.

And is it going to be something that is an improvement over bus service, or driving in.

And there are a number of questions that kind of go into that, within that bucket.

And we heard...

I have an email question, but we're going to get to Rebecca, in just a bit, with her question.

This one is, "What's the projected travel time from Scranton to Penn Station?

And perhaps, Mr. Vilter, you have that answer.

- Sure, I do.

It's expected to be a little bit over three hours.

- Okay, so it's going to take three hours there.

There are, as we said in the opening, a number of stops in Pennsylvania and in New Jersey.

And that brings us to Rebecca's phone question.

Let's hear what Rebecca asked.

- [Rebecca] I'm calling to see what cities in North Jersey the train would be stopping at, before New York City?

- So, Mr. Vilter, what stations, do you have that information in front of you?

What cities?

- I do.

It's not definitively settled, but I can tell you what we're thinking about, and that's Andover, Dover, Morristown, and Newark area.

So yeah, there you go, we have a visual on screen here, so that's what we're planning on.

- So, in Pennsylvania, do you recall the stations in Pennsylvania?

- [Paige] Mount Pocono is one.

- Sure, yeah, Tobyhanna, Mount Pocono, East Stroudsburg, and of course, Scranton.

- All right, so in East Stroudsburg, of course, you have the university there, for the kids up there.

We had an interesting question about, again, about efficiency, 'cause 3 1/2 hours, or 3 hours, that could be a little bit longer than bus service.

And it certainly is not as long as, you know, driving in yourself.

But I don't know of a lot of people, such as myself, don't want to really drive in Manhattan.

(laughs) But so that would be an advantage.

But it occurred to me, we heard from Kathleen, and she emailed an interesting question about efficiency, and how this is going to run.

So let's see what Kathleen had.

"How would the train be fueled?

With gas prices rising, would the train be more economic?

I don't look forward to an influx of people to the Wyoming Valley, even if it means higher property values.

What subsequent... bidding of new... Would subsequent building of new homes ruin the precious green spaces around us?"

So there's a lot of environmental issues there.

So let's go with fuel, how is this going to be fueled, Mr. Vilter?

- We are planning to acquire brand new train sets for this, Amtrak already has a large number of those on order.

And we have options to acquire new ones, based... Additional ones based on the level of interest per route, such as Scranton.

The trains in this route would be diesel powered.

They would be the very cleanest, and most modern level, of diesel power, railroads have different tiers of cleanliness, if you will, for their diesel.

And these would be the most modern, and cleanest version, called Tier 4.

So these would be diesel, initially.

We hope, over time, the locomotives are modularly constructed, so it should be possible to remove the diesel prime mover, and replace it with battery, or hydrogen power, if such a thing becomes practical, during the lifespan of the locomotive.

But initially, they'll be cleanest variety of diesel that is currently mandated and available.

- Does Amtrak have any studies that compares the efficiency of train travel, as opposed to bus travel, as opposed to, you know, car, automobile travel?

- Sure, yeah, we look at efficiency in terms of, you know, passenger miles-per-gallon.

We also look at greenhouse gas emissions, and rail compares very favorably to these other modes.

And that's one of the reasons we're so bullish on bringing this type of transportation to the Scranton area, is that in Woodsbury, and the other towns in the area, that it's much cleaner than driving your car.

- Well, we sent the WVIA News Team out, to get some, you know, reactions from people on the street.

And we'll we go to that now, and see what various people down in Scranton had to say about this prospect.

- It would be great for the economy here.

I think a lot of stores would open up around town, and that would be a great thing to se.

- I would love it, it'd be so much easier to get home, and then like, just go pop into the city for a weekend, better than a bus.

- I think it's exciting, obviously brings a lot of opportunity, I mean, to the city, and the area in general, as far as, you know, just the value of being in this area.

And the connectivity to like, a major metropolis, like New York City.

- So that's what a few be people in Scranton had to say.

How does that make you feel, Mayor, to hear those comments?

- It's great, it sounds like the young woman is a student.

It really sounded like that argument, that it'd be easier to get home, have your parents come in.

And that's exactly... this would help people of all ages.

Those families that wanna take their kid into the museums, people that wanna work remotely, and be able to get back into the city.

People that wanna come in for education, and people that wanna come in for tourism.

- Okay, well, we had a couple of comments that linked together, one from Tom, came in through Facebook.

And Patricia, she left a phone question.

And it had to do with... You know, we're serving Scranton, what about the city to the south?

So let's see what Tom asked.

"It might be okay for people whose starting point is Scranton, but for people in Wilkes-Barre, it would mean an 18-mile drive, to get to-and-from the train.

To me, that's no saving, when you have to factor in time, and the all-day parking."

So that's Tom's take on that, because you know, you're coming from Wilkes-Barre, you'd have to park at the inter-modal area, and get the train.

Rebecca was also... or, I'm sorry, Patricia, also, was on the same wavelength, I think, Patricia said... - [Patricia] Would there be a stop in Wilkes-Barre?

- So that's a simple question, any thought?

And I say, right now, in the proposals I saw, there's not anything in there, there's no proposal for Wilkes-Barre.

But Mr. Vilter, would that be something to be looked at?

There used to be the old Laurel Line that went from Wilkes-Barre to Scranton.

- Yeah, well, it's possible.

When talking about train routes, we're kind of constrained by the... where the tracks go.

And as you mentioned, the Laurel Line used to go out to Wilkes-Barre, that's not really available to us anymore.

So we would have to look, and see what routes are available, at a competitive trip time.

It could be that there are routes there, but they're not, you know, a high enough speed to make a competitive trip-time.

So we're kind of at the mercy of the historic rail network, and we'd have to look and see what is still there, and still available to be used.

- Well, we're coming down, we only have a couple of minutes left, and I'll... Perhaps you can answer this, Mayor, but certainly, Mr. Vilter also can chime in.

At the earliest possible, if everything goes right, when will that first train pull out of Scranton?

- We're a few years out, at least, right?

- A few years.

- We know how these things work, and government does not... is not a high-speed train.

(Larry laughs) We don't do a lot of things quickly.

We, you know, Mr. Vilter will know better than I, but we have to set expectations.

Even if we're one of the first corridors to get the green light, it will be at least a few years before this is ready.

This would be a long-term project.

And just to speak to the Wilkes-Barre connection piece, we need to do a better job with mass transit in our region.

We need to connect regionally better.

I imagine that between Luzerne and Lackawanna Counties transit systems, there would be a very regular route to make sure that people can get between those two cities, and make that viable.

And the other piece, I'd like to say, when people complain about, "Well, it's gonna take too long to get there," I always say, "Well, you have to have a local before you have an express."

So I'd say the same thing about Wilkes-Barre.

And I get people like, "What about Syracuse?"

You know, if we have to start somewhere, so if we can start here, reestablish this line, you know, we don't know what the possibilities are, but we certainly hope we can start with this.

- And you start with this, and if its a success, then you look beyond that.

And Mr. Vilter, just very quickly, there is a little misconception that I keep hearing, in this conversation, and that is, what are we gonna do, how will we have this high-speed train?

It is not a high-speed train that is being proposed, right?

- No, no, - It is a regular Amtrak train, that's going to go at, you know, what we are used to, when we do train travel.

So if anybody- - Yeah, that's exactly right.

- If anybody's concerned about that, we don't have to worry about that.

These tracks are put in place to handle a standard train.

Okay, well wonderful.

- That's exactly right.

- Well, we're out of time, there's much more to talk about.

I'd like to thank you for being part of the conversation, and thank you for joining us.

And if you'd like more information, just visit wvia.org/keystonereports.

And remember, you can re-watch this episode on demand, any time online, or on the WVIA app.

For "Keystone Edition", I'm Larry Vojtko, thank you so much for watching.

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