- [Announcer] Live from your Public Media Studios, WVIA presents, Keystone Edition Business, a public affairs program that goes beyond the headlines to address issues in Northeastern and central Pennsylvania.

This is Keystone Edition Business, and now, moderator Kris Jones.

- Hello, I'm Kris Jones.

Study show that millions of people have left their jobs over the last year, in what's being called The Great Resignation.

Experts believe there are still many more workers who are waiting until the pandemic is over to change careers.

So what can you do if you wanna change jobs and what can employers do to keep employees from leaving?

We have panelists here, ready to answer those questions and more.

Call us at 1-800-326-9842.

Email us at keystone@wvia.org.

Tag us on social with the #keystonebusiness with your thoughts.

But first WVIA's Paul Mazhar, takes a closer look at The Great Resignation.

(air whooshing) - [Paul] Over the past year, millions of workers have left their jobs in what's been dubbed, The Great Resignation.

Employers and experts want to know what's driving the exodus.

Well, there's no one real answer.

But the pandemic is playing a big role.

The stress of staffing shortages, lack of a work-life balance or a toxic culture are all driving many, especially in the service and hospitality industries to seek other kinds of jobs.

Other workers who are furloughed took advantage of the time to improve their resumes and skills to change industries.

Studies found that many workers left based on how their employers treated them during the pandemic.

Now, instead of employees competing for jobs, employers are competing for workers.

Experts say that to stay competitive, companies will have to invest in their people by offering perks like a work from home option, flexible schedule and, or commuting benefit among others.

For Keystone Edition Business, I'm Paul Mazhar.

- Now let's meet our panel of experts here to answer your questions on The Great Resignation.

Josh Knauer joins us on zoom.

He's a professor at Carnegie Mellon University and an executive in residence at Columbia University Ventures, as well as a serial entrepreneur.

Dr. Vivienne Wildes is also joining us on zoom.

She's an associate professor of management at Bucknell University.

Bill Leonard is here in the studio.

He owns Leonard Workforce Solutions, a company that helps businesses recruit and network with potential employees, and helps connect employees with their job search strategies, resume writing and practice interviews, welcome guests.

Bill, we're gonna start with you.

Why is The Great Resignation happening?

- Well, the COVID-19 pandemic gave people the space really to reassess and reevaluate their careers, their longterm goals and their employment relationships.

And what they found is that, they don't wanna go back to the way things were, and there's a number of reasons for that.

Number one is, childcare issues, right?

There are so many people, especially women who are at home with young children, or they're caring for elderly parents and cannot go back into the workforce.

A lot of people don't feel appreciated and valued by their former employers, and so they're opting out and they're not going back.

A lot of people are looking for better pay, compensation benefits.

Another really interesting statistic is that 6.7 million businesses were formed between the onset of the pandemic in June 2021.

That's the highest number ever.

So there's a lot of reasons behind this, and we also have to bring up burnout too.

So many people are burnt out from their jobs.

So those are just a number of reasons.

- And were gonna deep dive on both perspectives, the employee and the employer, Bill.

So we'll be coming back to you.

Dr. Vivienne Wildes, you mind if I call you Vivienne?

- No, I like that.

- Perfect, thank you so much.

Let's go ahead and dive deeper into why employees are leaving their jobs.

before you answer, one in three are approximately considering leaving their jobs.

Healthcare, tech and hospitality workers seem to be hardest hit.

What are your thoughts, right?

There are issues around mental health, burnout, unhealthy work environments.

They seem to be driving some of the resignations, but what are you seeing?

- Well, first, Kris, I'd like to say, thank you for bringing up this topic and airing it on your show.

It's very important and it's playing out nationally.

And also it's given us a great opportunity to have a dialogue about this in the workplace dialogue.

I think the COVID-19 allowed people for better or worse, to take a great pause and to rethink what is valuable to them, whether it's staying at home, whether it's the amount of money that they're making.

And so it's been what almost, a year and a half, almost two years, people are just coming back to work.

But it was enough time that people could set the reset button.

And so I think that that's one of the important things.

It's caused a great conversation around the minimum wage.

You might put immigration into that mix.

So, to think about getting workers who want to work here in this country.

So there are a lot of different conversations that are happening for, on the employee side and on the employer side and it's important, and we will continue to make ourselves better as a result of this.

- Perfect, yeah, and I think one of the things, Josh, that has really happened here is a lot of businesses were forced into a remote environment.

And now studies like most recently by Microsoft, suggests that a hybrid environment might be more preferable.

When you think about the, what's going through the employee's mind as they are considering resigning or they're resigning, what are some of the issues that come up that you're seeing?

- Well, I think employee, there are several different types of employees i think that we should be perhaps talking about in a little bit of different way.

White collar workers in the creative class that are working in places like, software companies and places that have the ability to work remotely, who have the financial stability to be able to take the time and think things through, and maybe start a new business.

They're really focused on the fact that their workplaces aren't enriching them, they aren't feeling that they are receiving sort of a, they're not achieving the goals that they want in their lives.

They wanna make a difference in the world, they wanna do all kinds of interesting and exciting things.

And the majority of workplaces in the past have not done that.

All workers have been treated as commodities, basically, even at the highest ends of white collar work.

On the other side, you have workers that are barely making ends meet who have been frontline workers, in supermarkets and in medical, the medical arena, restaurants and all the rest that have been working throughout the pandemic and have been desperately trying to work throughout the pandemic.

These are the same people that worked multiple jobs prior to the pandemic, just to make ends meet.

Those folks are finding that the low wages that they're being paid, the lack of childcare, and sometimes the distance and the timing of, the distance they have to commute, and the timing of the hours that they work are all providing basically a hostile work environment that doesn't even help them pay enough to make ends meet.

And so those folks are basically burned out and are opting right now not to work.

- Thank you so much.

Bill, we're gonna come back to you here in the studio.

The other guests have given us a lot of different reasons, but what about that employee who's been at a particular job for 10 or 15 years.

See, you're on the front lines of this stuff, how are you coaching them?

What type of advice are you giving them in the current sort of economy for considering that transition?

- I love this question, I deal with it all the time.

So, if someone's thinking of switching jobs, after that long period of time, what they're gonna wanna do, number one is to really assess who they are and who they're becoming, or who they are, what are their interests, their value, their skills, their goals, because you're gonna want to match yourself to employers, to leaders, to industries where there's that alignment.

too often that does not happen.

So you have to target specific employers, industries, leaders, and even teammates where you want to work.

You also need to do your research and investigation and do what's called informational interviews.

So if you know someone who is an accountant and you wanna become an accountant, you're gonna wanna maybe buy them coffee and ask them some questions, what's the job really like?

That's the best information you're gonna get, is from someone who's actually doing the job.

Another piece of advice is to have a really strong accomplishments-based resume, a really powerful LinkedIn profile.

Two more things, you can't do it alone, your job search, you can't do it alone.

So whether you're a part of a job club, you have a career board of advisors, family, friends network, whatever it is, you can't do it alone.

And finally, network, network, network.

There's a popular statistic thrown around that approximately 70 to 75% of jobs are secured through networking and referrals.

And even if that number is too high, even if it's 50% or 33%, the odds are that your next job is gonna come through a warm introduction.

So you really do have to network.

It's gonna open up the door to opportunities for you.

- Perfect, thank you.

Vivienne, we're gonna come back to you.

So we talked about it from the employee perspective.

Employees are burnout, employees have had time to think about this and they're making big career changes with confidence, but let's talk about what the employer can do.

What can employers do to minimize employees from quitting their organization?

- So I think there are a couple of different levels of what they can actually do.

Just for example, in the hospitality industry, it's not usual to get benefits.

And by that, I mean health benefits.

So I think that the employers are going to have to provide benefits.

At a higher level, I think we're going to see, and there's an expectation of some sort of empathic leadership that's required from employers.

And I know that's not always easy because especially, say in hospitality where people have to be on the frontline where they actually have to come to work, they don't have a choice to be a remote employee.

So in the hospitality industry and the services industry in general, the employers are gonna have to ante up and pay a higher salary.

And that adjustment just needs to be made.

But also just going back to the empathy, understanding that employees are working, not for fun, especially line level employees, they're working because they need the money and they need to be there.

So there has to be some kind of adjustment for that.

And it might take a little while for people to understand that, but I think in the end, that's what we're going to come out of this with, is a more caring environment.

And that's hard to do sometimes when you're the employer.

- I really wanna just to thank you for bringing up this idea of empathy.

And I think, as I continue to attempt to become a better leader, I think that is a challenge that I think that those of us that are interested in professional development could take on from a very distinguished professor like yourself, so thank you.

Josh, I'd like you to kind of give your perspective as well on what can employers do in response to the great resignation?

- Well, I couldn't agree more with the concept of empathy and empathetic leadership as a strength.

We can see the differences in performance, both top line, and in terms of retention of employees, between companies like Costco, which is very well known for providing benefits to its employees and Starbucks and places like that, compared to Sam's club, for example, just which does not provide the same level of support to its employees.

And Costco has had a much easier job of keeping employees through the pandemic and those employees are loyal and tend to stay longer.

There are lots of other factors, I think, childcare is a huge issue that we keep hearing about in all the research that we're doing, looking at this issue.

And one that hasn't been mentioned is the concept of feeling safe at work.

So, especially in service industries, we have employees right now who are trying to enforce mask rules or trying to get people to stay six feet apart, who are being assaulted, who have been verbally and physically assaulted at work.

And we're gonna need to see a new level of security, physical security provided at work.

And then the emotional security of having leaders that are creating cultures where people feel like they belong, feel like they're part of something bigger than just themselves, and that they're there to accomplish something that is meaningful in their lives.

And these are the types of constant feedback that we're hearing.

And I would just say also, I think it's important to point out, that when we're talking about frontline workers, specifically folks that are working at, or just above the minimum wage, fear of COVID itself and catching it from their customers and fellow employees is a huge issue.

And it's very real.

The majority of deaths that have taken place have occurred in communities that are lower in the economic income brackets.

And we are seeing not just the deaths that have taken place, but just here in Pennsylvania alone, we've had over a million and a half diagnosed cases of COVID, and if 25 to 50% of those cases, involve some sort of ongoing symptoms, you have workers who are not at peak performance and not at their peak health.

And so employers are gonna have to be very aware of that fact and the fact that they probably need to be a bit more flexible in terms of how they're providing hours and certainly the compensation and benefits they're providing.

- Excellent, excellent, Bill, We're gonna come back to you here in studio.

I have a two-part question.

The first one is on the importance of career transparency, upward mobility, a lot of people feel stuck in their position, they don't see any upside.

As a coach, if you will, if you don't mind me calling you a coach, 'cause I think you are, how would you advise an employer on how to provide greater career transparency for their employees?

- So What I would suggest to the employer is to have a conversation, literally sit down with your employees and ask them where they want to go, whether it be internally or externally, and develop a plan with their input to help them get there, right?

So that could be sending them off site, it could be bringing someone in to coach them or mentor them, whatever the case may be.

But it's having a conversation with the employee to find out what their goals are and how you as an employer could help get them there.

Because without their input and feedback, you're just gonna be forcing something on them that's probably not gonna work.

- So an employer comes to you and they say, hey, Bill, we survived the pandemic, but how do I stand out?

How do I get the top employees?

So what are some tips that you could give them kind of the minimum things and maybe a couple of secret ideas that you have for how to make someone that you might represent on the employer side, more competitive in this economy?

- Sure, sure, and I know a lot of employers right now are competing against each other with wages and bonuses and that's important.

But what I always try and tell my clients that the businesses I'm working for, is that leave with your values.

So when I'm writing a job description and I put it on my website, I like to include what the company's values are, because I want prospective employees and job seekers to know what the company stands for.

So again, they could match themselves up, they could find that alignment.

Number two is, you want to, an employment relationship is a relationship, and we need to remember that.

So, what's important in a relationship, good and effective communication, support, empathy, trust, development, all of those things that make a good personal relationship, make a good employment relationship.

So if job seekers know that if current employees know that, and you're giving them those things, that support, they're gonna wanna work for you, and they're gonna wanna stay with you.

So lead with values, but offer those other things, flexibility, right?

Trust, growth, empathy, all of those things are important.

- Perfect, perfect, thank you so much.

Vivienne, by latest check, there's about 11 million open jobs and there's only about 10 million people to fill them.

Is this a pandemic problem?

Is this the new normal?

And what are your thoughts on this?

And any solutions that come to mind?

- Well, Kris, I don't think that the data is there to really, it's not there yet.

So people I'm sure are working on gathering different types of data.

As I said at the beginning, I really think that the pandemic gave people an opportunity to say, what's important to me?

How, I didn't like how I was being treated at work.

Remember too, that there's the largest group that's not going back to work is the 30 to 40 group, 30 years to 40 group.

And so historically those folks have not been, the companies haven't been loyal to them.

And so there's not a lot of brand loyalty, large with, say generation X, generation Y, this new generation Z, who are my students at this time, they definitely want to work.

But they have told me, I don't wanna be a cog in the wheel, I wouldn't mind going, I'll go to work and learn, and then I wanna start something myself, unwilling to take the risk, to be on a platform economy, or to start my own business.

And they see people who get wildly successful at TikTok or YouTube, and that doesn't mean it's going to happen for everybody, but there are a lot of new things that are happening out there.

So it's, with this gap in numbers, it's just, things are changing.

We are living in a big change and history will tell us, how that change will play itself out, but it's not going to be the same, I don't think we're going to go back to the same normal that we were in before.

So I don't know-- - Josh-- - If that really answers your question, but-- - It does, this is a provocative topic, and we're trying to take the data that we have and make predictions, Josh, what are your thoughts?

Do you think this is the new normal, or do you think that this is currently an employee market, and it's only a matter of time before things balance out and employers are back in charge?

- It all depends on your, what timeframe you're looking at.

At the beginning of the pandemic, I made a prediction that we would see economic impacts for at least five years, that we would see millions of businesses go out of business, see a resurgence of new businesses starting, and that employment patterns would change for quite a while.

I think that right now, we're in sort of a middle period of this pandemic and we're not at the end, this is not over.

And I think come winter, we'll see that most people are not gonna be going back to work in an office in the traditional way because of spikes.

And the fact that we don't have a population that is as widely vaccinated as it needs to be.

So basically we're still in this very turbulent period, and I think this turbulent period will benefit if there's a way to say this, the employees, and there will be, sort of an employee market, if you will.

And I think that as we see the fallout from this and the ripple effects over time play out, we probably will come to some more equilibrium, but in general, a lot of the business practices of old, old being two years ago and before that, are really not going to be tolerated anymore.

We have an entire huge generation of younger folks that are coming into the workforce that will not put up with a lot of the types of abuses that have taken place of workers at all different levels of work.

And, we're seeing this play out a lot right now in a sort of a turbulent way, but I think over time, we'll see it settle in where once again more empathetic workplaces will have better financial performance.

And that is the name of the game, and, of our economy.

And I think business leaders, while they may not be empathetic themselves of their own accord, those economic drivers will cause that to happen.

And we've seen this happen in many different industries in the past.

- Perfect, perfect, we have a social media question here, and it's either for Vivienne or Josh, what is OSHA doing in regard to remote workers and the COVID vaccination deadline?

Are you familiar?

- Josh, you wanna take that or, I'm not sure what they're doing anything, for people who are working at home.

I mean, there are some rules from the past, but (chuckles) I don't know, I'm not sure, I can't answer that.

- I can say that there is absolutely, there always has been a need for OSHA to keep more up with the times, especially with information workers and creative workers.

And I think that we need OSHA to modernize and to understand and start advocating for workers that are in unique situations.

And what's emerging is not so unique anymore.

The gig economy, very little, if any OSHA involvement on that side of things.

And then of course, as workers are working from home, there's a lot of norms that still need to be figured out.

We are all willing to get work from home on our own computers and set up our own offices and carve out parts of our house for meetings and all the rest.

But at some point that has to be taken into account in terms of compensation and savings that the company is realizing that have to be passed on to workers and then health issues that happen as a result of sitting in the chair in your home, glued to zoom meetings all day, might lead to a lot of other issues that have to be investigated.

- Perfect, Bill, we're gonna come to you for the final question, we've got about a minute and 20 seconds.

Can you share some of your closing thoughts and also maybe a tip or two to employees on how they should be thinking about, if they're thinking about resigning, maybe some tips.

- Sure, so if an employee is thinking about resigning, what I would say is to make sure that you're doing everything you can at your current place of employment to be successful, to leave it in a good place, wrap up your work, leave your relationships in a positive way.

And when you're thinking about your future, right?

I go back to again, finding that alignment and matching yourself to good employers and industry jobs, where you're gonna be happy and you're gonna be motivated, and there's that goals alignment, because you want to feel fulfilled in your career, because your career plays such an important part of your life.

So really you gotta do your research, you got to know who you are, and you have to find that alignment.

- And what about the employers?

What's your final thought, about 30 seconds, that you would provide to an employer?

- Sure, so if I was an employer, I would let them know that times have changed.

And you want to attract people who are intrinsically motivated to work for you, right?

So you want to help them utilize their strengths, provide meaningful work, purposeful work, show the employee the outcome, right?

Your work is contributing to this positive outcome.

People wanna do good work, they wanna be part of something special, and you have to provide that platform and experience for them.

- Thank you very much.

I would like to thank our panelists for participating and thank you for joining us.

For more information on this topic, and some tips on job searching, please visit wvia.org/keystonebusiness.

And remember, you can re-watch this episode on demand any time online or on the WVIA app.

For Keystone Edition, I'm Kris Jones, thank you for watching.

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